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770107 - Conversation B - Bombay

From Vanisource

His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada



770107ED-BOMBAY - January 07, 1977 - 48:06 Minutes


(Evening Darsana)



Jagadīśa: (reading letter) "Enclosed please find a clipping showing a press interview with California Governor Jerry Brown, who is a potential presidential candidate in the next election, asking the Hare Kṛṣṇa followers to help humanize conditions in the state mental institutes. He recognized that what is needed is for religious leaders to come in and to give these patients new life. And he recognized us as religious leaders. This is a great credit for us, and we immediately called the five biggest state institutes and got permission to visit their patients. We sent fifty devotees with gift-wrapped 'Krishnas' presents of prasāda, Bhagavad-gītās and Kṛṣṇa books, calendars, records, and so on. And all of the doctors were so appreciative that they invited us back to show movies, put on plays and continue helping their patients."

Prabhupāda: Aiye. (Hindi)

Indian man: (Hindi) Humanity is hungry for the philosophy for the Śrī Kṛṣṇa. Devotion, yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the only . . .

Indian man: That is only medicine. That is only remedy.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Indian man: Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is only medicine. That is only remedy.

Prabhupāda: I have directly presented, "Here is God, kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). But why you are making research and wasting time, 'Whether God is person or imperson or this or that? What is His . . .?' Here is God."

Indian man: That is the material view, to analyze all these things.

Prabhupāda: God is personally presenting Himself: aham. Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ (BG 10.8). Still these people cannot understand.

Indian man: Mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate.

Prabhupāda: But they are so dull-headed, they can't understand.

Indian man: They can't understand. They have no imagination, nothing at all. No sight.

Prabhupāda: Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati (BG 7.3). God is present Himself, presenting Himself . . .

Indian man: Presenting Himself.

Prabhupāda: . . . and still, the rascals will not understand. Mūḍha. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ . . .

Indian man: Prapadyante narādhamāḥ māyayāpahṛta jñānā āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ (BG 7.15).

Prabhupāda: God is presenting Himself, and still, they cannot understand. Such a mūḍha, duṣkṛtino, narādhamāḥ.

Indian man: We have to wash that ignorance, giving the message to the . . .

Prabhupāda: No . . . (Hindi with guest) Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etām (BG 7.14).

Indian man: Māyām etāṁ taranti te.

Prabhupāda: But he'll not do that.

Indian man: Because he has succumbed to the passionate passions.

Prabhupāda: But if he takes Bhagavad-gītā as it is, then everything is all right immediately.

Indian man: That is the disease.

Prabhupāda: (aside:) Prasāda. Mam eva ye prapadyante māyām . . .

Indian man: Māyām etāṁ taranti te.

na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ
prapadyante narādhamāḥ
māyayāpahṛta-jñānā
āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ
(BG 7.15)
catur-vidhā bhajante māṁ
janāḥ sukṛti . . .
(BG 7.16)

Prabhupāda: That is the disease. Āsuraṁ bhāvam.

Indian man: Āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ.

Prabhupāda: (Hindi)

Indian man: And day by day, that community is increasing. Day by day, that community is increasing, at least in India. Young generation is going in materialism. Materialism increases, then egoism, and they need to be . . .

Prabhupāda: Mṛtyu-saṁsāra-vartmani (BG 9.3). Mām aprāpya nivartante mṛtyu-saṁsāra . . .

Indian man: Mṛtyu-saṁsāra-vartmani. (Hindi with Prabhupāda)

Prabhupāda: Both are educated.

Indian man: Both are educated. They are called educated fools. (laughs)

Prabhupāda: Jñānī murkha. (Hindi) (break) (Hindi) Jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19).

Indian man: Jñānavān māṁ prapadyate.

Prabhupāda: (Hindi)

Indian man: I have been to Poona when there were some lectures on this Swami Sraddhananda. It was fifty years past to his death. So there were some lectures.

Prabhupāda: Sraddhananda, they're Arya-samājis.

Indian man: Arya-samājis he was, follower of Swami Vivekananda. He was shot down in Delhi, and so . . . Forty years, and there was some ceremony, all these things.

Prabhupāda: (Hindi) (break) How it will be fortune? Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā (BG 9.11). (Hindi)

Indian man: (Hindi) They think like that (Hindi with Prabhupāda) They think like this. So they'll end in the same way.

Trivikrama: So how are we going to change?

Indian man: How? Only way, you see, mām anusmara yuddhya ca (BG 8.7): taking the name, believing in full in the name of the Almighty. And we have to try our level best to uplift the society, to make them educate, to guide them, provide them, to bring them on the right path. This is only way.

Trivikrama: Bhagavad-gītā says we need the guru.

Guest (1): Yes, sir, that is correct. No, no. No doubt. That is correct. So they should understand on where they wanted to go, what is their goal.

Prabhupāda: There is no goal. They think after this body everything is finished.

Indian man: No, no. Endless life they are returning.

Prabhupāda: Mūḍhā nābhijānāti mām eva param avyayam.

Indian man: So we have to make them know that this is the wrong way, and this is the right way, and you have to go by this right way. And when you'll come to right way, he has to obey some discipline, obey some rules and rights. And there he wants nigraha. (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . is it possible to stop it? Or young men, if he says, "No, no, I'm not going to . . ." But everyone wants that. Young man does not want to become old man, but by nature's law he has to become.

prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni
guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ
ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā
kartāham iti manyate
(BG 3.27)

So the idea is that after losing our own culture, we have become set of fools. This is the real conclusion. Mūḍha. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). We have become so lowest of mankind and mūḍha and full of sinful activities that we cannot understand what Kṛṣṇa says. This is real position. I am not speaking—Kṛṣṇa says. This is the sign. If one does not hear Kṛṣṇa, then he must be grouped in these categories: duṣkṛtina, mūḍha, narādhama, māyayāpahṛta-jñānā. What is the value of their so-called education if they cannot understand the simple truth, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13)? What is the value of this education? Today I may be very big man, but I do not know that there is dehāntara. And what kind of deha I am going to get? Nobody has any knowledge, neither they're interested to cultivate. They have concluded that "After death, everything is finished." This is their education. Blind. Westerners, they say it frankly. That big, big professor, I have talked: "Swāmījī, after death everything is finished." This is their conclusion. And our first education is that tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. And they have given up everything. Kartāham iti manyate (BG 3.27). (Hindi) If you do not know the science, simply by false prestige you say, "No, whatever I am thinking, it is all right," are you free? You are completely under the laws of material nature. Why you are thinking foolishly? This is Indian culture. Even in the village, remotest village, you go and they will say (Hindi) pūrva-janme . . . (Hindi) They'll say. This is India's culture, pūrva-janma, paro-janma, dehāntara-prāptiḥ. And you have lost your sense. What kind of education? What is the value of this education? Very precarious condition.

Indian man: One thing that these people have adopted . . .

Prabhupāda: These people or that people, I don't mind.

Indian man: Yes, sir. We have the secular India concept.

Prabhupāda: Again, why you are bringing "secular India"? This is a science. Science, scientific knowledge—so does it mean the secular India, they should stop scientific education?

Indian man: No religion can be backed up like that.

Prabhupāda: No, why you bring religion at all? It is science. Religion is a kind of faith. But science is not faith. You may have faith or may not have faith. Science, "Two plus two equal to four," everywhere. Why they forget this? This is a science, vijñāna. Jñānaṁ te 'haṁ sa-vijñānaṁ idaṁ vakṣyāmy aśeṣataḥ (BG 7.2). It is vijñāna. And they are interpreting in different way: "Two plus two equal to five." Big, big men, they are doing that. Two plus two equal to five because somebody, some big man has said? This is going on. Somebody said, "Two plus two equal to three"; somebody says "Two plus two equal to five." "In my opinion it is five." And somebody: "In my opinion it is three." What is this nonsense? This is going on. And they are big men. They are leaders, mūḍha. This is the position of India.

D. D. Desai: But Swāmījī, you are just (Hindi) on Hindu . . .

Prabhupāda: I'm not (Hindi). My jñāna is Bhagavad-gītā. That's all. Neither (Hindi). But what Kṛṣṇa says, I accept. That's all. They say, "Swāmījī, you have done wonderful." I do not know what is magic, wonderful. But one thing wonderful I have done, that I have not adulterated on the words of Kṛṣṇa. That I have not. And therefore the effect is very good. I have not adulterated. I don't say "Two plus two equal to five" or "three." I say "four." Kṛṣṇa has said. That's all.

D. D. Desai: Now that is not . . . It's not also the quest which I am really inviting, 2 p.m. and this is the acknowledgement. And subsequently we have our dinner at Brahmanandari's place. We close the subject, and discuss at length. Then he said . . .

Prabhupāda: No, you can study. It is going on throughout the whole world. Now the Western world, they're feeling the strength. They have now begun opposition. Their politicians are thinking that "This Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is spreading like epidemic." Actually it is so. "And if it is spread so quickly, within ten years they'll take our government." They say like that. (laughter) And that is possible because these young men, they have taken seriously and they're pushing on. If the majority is after them, they can take over. It is democratic, America. And how they are after this movement. If you see our latest picture of Ratha-yātrā . . . You have seen that film, Ratha-yātrā?

D. D. Desai: Yes. I have seen this. So many thousands of, lakhs of people . . .

Prabhupāda: Fifth Avenue.

D. D. Desai: Yes. They're pulling the chariot.

Prabhupāda: You might have seen.

D. D. Desai: I think San Francisco or somewhere?

Girirāja: This is very recent, in New York.

Prabhupāda: People become mad, and the papers admitted, "Here is the place for East and West to meet." And the police were so satisfied, they said, "Next year we shall make very, very nice arrangement."

Indian man: Unfortunately, what has happened, that these several movements have merged.

Prabhupāda: This is not one of the several movements.

Indian man: No. These people have confusion in their mind. One of course is CIA, then FBI, then this hippie, then this narcotic people and these some sort of, er . . .

Prabhupāda: Hundreds there are. But what we have got to do with them?

Indian man: They're addicted with those things. And also some of our own Transcendental Meditation and so forth, all these things are creating some mental confusion and lack of certain clarity which is affecting . . .

Prabhupāda: But we must have eyes to see. What they have got, position? All these, they go and come. But here it is entering into the core of the heart of the younger generation. They are becoming mad after it. One should have eyes to see. And therefore the authorities are afraid that "Younger generation, if they . . ." Here is one book by Professor Stillson Judah. He's a great, learned scholar. After five years' studying of this movement he has written this book, Hare Krishna and Counterculture. He has given his verdict that "This movement will stay." He has very thoroughly studied the statistics and meeting every member, in this way. There are many books about us, small and big. But here is a responsible master of religious studies.

D. D. Desai: See, one of the earliest days, when we had this group come to our neighborhood, Mrs. Desai and myself visited. They invite together.

Mrs. Desai: Parvati-kanta.

D. D. Desai: Swami Parvati-kanta had called that in Gupta House, Natinsi Road. So our house is adjacent. Bungalow is adjacent to it. So we were there, invited there, so we joined the group. Those all people came to our bungalow subsequently, and they had some program. Then Mrs. Desai served them some food . . .

Prabhupāda: Our program?

Mrs. Desai: Yes. Hare Kṛṣṇa.

D. D. Desai: Yes, sir, Hare Kṛṣṇa program. They had a program, kīrtana. Then we enrolled as life member. I think that was about four years back.

Mrs. Desai: (Hindi)

D. D. Desai: Four or five years back. Swāmījī from our this Badranath, who is around this . . . Vina(?) Swami. He was there. He was saying that "Our people have forgotten our, this culture and this heritage, but people who are . . ."

Prabhupāda: Everyone says. It is purely Indian culture, and I am not getting any help from the government, although they have got cultural department. Some dancing party will go—they'll pay. That is culture. And cultural knowledge is religion. This is the position. (Hindi) Real culture is neglected. And some dancing party in the name of culture will draw money and go.

Indian man: Perhaps he is right, Swāmījī. Nobody has studied this movement deeply.

Prabhupāda: Why they don't study? It is going on worldwide. They are studying.

Indian lady: They do not study. Why should they not study, because they give their opinion.

Indian lady (2): Like Swāmījī says, the karma-yoga is very important in India.

Indian man: Whatever yoga they do, first everybody . . .

D. D. Desai: It is true, Swāmījī. You are a preacher, teacher, everything. So one of your responsibilities will be obviously to make any ignorant man knowledgeable. And these people . . .

Indian lady: (interrupting) Excuse me, but that ignorant man must, you see, be prepared to get the knowledge.

D. D. Desai: I'll just finish that. Now, here is our people, whether they are leaders or whether they are big politician, whatever you might call. Now, having known that they suffer for certain difficulties or . . . We say you can only pity them for their lack of knowledge, and to that extent, you, out of sympathy, would naturally like to impart in them certain basic material knowledge, which has distracted them. Now, this, I think, Swāmījī Vivekanandi . . . Because my grandfather, grand-uncle, was repons . . . Haridāsa Bhai Dada, was responsible for Swāmījī's, Vivekananda's trip to America. That was sometime at turn of last century.

Indian man (2): (people talking at same time) I have seen his latest book, . . . (indistinct)

D. D. Desai: Haridāsa . . . And that was my grand-uncle, my grandfather's elder brother. So we are joint family, Hindi joint family. So Swāmījī used to go round and . . . That is, when I say Swāmījī, I mean Vivekanandji. He used to go round and then be quite . . . (indistinct) . . . sometimes, sometimes casually, sometimes persuade you. But he, whatever I have known from my father, who was at that time studying in Bahauddin College . . . This is . . . he died at eighty-two years' age some time. Now he has finished his century, so I believe that was sometime beginning of the last century, end of last century. So he was telling that Swāmījī was quite a person, and he would never worry about (Hindi) or anything. He would still take care of his own little self-respect, but still he insisted on other peoples' being informed with his knowledge, imparted with his knowledge. To that extent, he also, when he went to States . . . You said in . . .

Indian man (2): 1902.

D. D. Desai: 1902 that is, he . . .

Indian man: No, no. Earlier, earlier.

Prabhupāda: No, he went . . . 1893.

D. D. Desai: 1893. Yes, he knows these things. Turn of last century. He wrote some letters to my grand-uncle. Therein he has said about the immigration difficulties and other things. And then he could finally establish certain amount of respect for himself and the Indian culture. In other words, what point I am trying to make is that the world at large does not recognize the good person from a bad person. And therefore it becomes the responsibility of good person to bring at least awareness about the good person's existence, and then they follow. Now, how many people have followed Swami Vivekananda? How many people followed to start with? These things came because of his personal contacts. Now, here also the same people have all praise and all respect, all things for the movement. Similarly, we have also. We came to know, and so we are in it. Now, for example, Mrs. Gandhi is highly religious, I know. Whatever others might have feeling . . .

Prabhupāda: I know that.

D. D. Desai: She herself is highly religious. The amount of respect she has got for Indian culture is terrific, to an extent of almost aggression if somebody puts a foot down or something about these things. Even Panditjī, with all said and done, he had a feeling, and he was one with Mahatma Gandhi, that a day will come when India, by solving its problems, will take away the existing world from the present Western culture to a new culture, which will be of a superior level. That day would be the day when India has made good its ultimate destiny. Something like that they had feeling. So Panditjī also was dreaming, but he was not an executive type of person or . . . So Panditjī had left his things onlydreams, but Mrs. Gandhi seems to be translating some of the dreams—or at least she feels she's translating some of the dreams—into reality. The difficulty with her is that she has not proper guidance at times, and to that extent she feels she falls into certain pits of difficulties. That basically a good soul, but a soul with certain waywardness could become at times little . . .

Prabhupāda: So if you think that Mrs. Gandhi is religious and is for Indian culture, why not ask her to take the guidance of Kṛṣṇa? Who can give better guidance than Kṛṣṇa?

Indian lady: Mahatma Gandhi took guidance . . . Of course, he also made lots of mistakes, but he did take guidance . . .

Prabhupāda: Everyone must make mistake, because a conditioned soul are liable to four defects. One of them is to commit mistake; one of them is to become illusioned; one of them, he is a cheater; and one of them, his senses are imperfect. So every conditioned soul who has got this material body, he is defective in these four things. Therefore he has to take knowledge from a person who has no defects. Then his knowledge will be perfect. Just like a small child, he is defective, but he receives the knowledge from the father: "This is called pencil." A child does not know what it is, but the father says, "My dear child, it is pencil." And if he says, "It is pencil," then it is correct, although he's a child, because he has received the knowledge from the person who knows it. Similarly, our principle is—that is Vedic principle—evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). The knowledge has to be taken from the superior, liberated person. Kṛṣṇa says in Bhagavad-gītā that

imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ
proktavān aham avyayam
vivasvān manave prāhur
manur ikṣvākave 'bravīt
(BG 4.1)

Evaṁ paramparā-prāptam (BG 4.2): "First of all I said to Vivasvān." The predominating deity in the sun planet is called Vivasvān. His name is Vivasvān. So he spoke to his son Manu; Manu spoke to his son Ikṣvāku. In this way He describes, sa kāleneha mahatā yogo naṣṭaḥ parantapa (BG 4.2): "That paramparā system is now lost. Therefore I am speaking you the old truth," yogaḥ proktaḥ purātanaḥ. That is nothing new; the same thing. And if we give up this paramparā system, then yogo naṣṭaḥ. So nobody is taking this Bhagavad-gītā in the paramparā system. He is interpreting in his own way. Therefore it is already naṣṭaḥ; it has no value. So this is going on. Yogo naṣṭaḥ parantapa. So because . . . Why we have to take from the authority? Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). Because guru means he presents the truth as it is. And as soon as you interpret, it is naṣṭaḥ; it is spoiled. So they are reading Bhagavad-gītā, but they do not take this instruction, that "I am presenting Bhagavad-gītā in a way which is spoiled." And they're insisting. So if you think that Indira Gandhi . . . I think so also, because I have heard so many times. Why not . . .? His position is very nice. If he actually follows the instruction of Kṛṣṇa, his position will be more secure. That is sure. Let her take this. She . . .

Indian man: But who will advise her, sir?

Prabhupāda: I will advise!

Indian man: Ah, that is it. That is the . . .

Prabhupāda: You arrange, I will advise it. I am not proud, but I am the authority at the present moment. It is not pride; it is the fact. So let her take. Let her understand. The authority is there. And what is understanding? It is simple truth. Everyone can understand. Any child can understand. There is no difficulty. We make it difficult by our rascal interpretation. And that is very simple thing. Kṛṣṇa says, aham ādir hi devānām (BG 10.2). So there must be somebody, original person. You are existing; you are coming from your father. Your father coming from his father, his father, his father . . . Now, who is the original father? There must be somebody. You may or may not know. So here is the answer: aham ādir hi devānām. So why don't you take? Where is the difficulty? If you are finding out who is the original person, and the original person is presenting Himself, and He is being accepted by great authorities—formerly Vyāsadeva, Nārada, Asita, Devala; later on Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, and all big, big stalwart ācāryas, Caitanya Mahāprabhu—so why don't you accept Kṛṣṇa the supreme original authority? What is the difficulty? The fact is very plain, but I'll not take it. If I misguide myself, then who will guide me? If I sleep while I am not sleeping, then who will help me? Take Kṛṣṇa's instruction. If Indira Gandhi . . . I know she is intelligent, she is religious. Let her follow strictly the instruction of Kṛṣṇa. Just his, all her ambition, all her programs will be successful—if he's serious.

D. D. Desai: Now, since you have shown the repeated willingness to talk to her directly, so I'll talk to her . . .

Prabhupāda: It is science. There is no difficulty to understand

D. D. Desai: I'll talk to her. Even I'll talk to her personally, that "Swāmījī would be delighted to . . ."

Prabhupāda: But whether she has got time?

Indian man: Yes, she's . . . That is the . . . Now, that is on one point I must tell you one small thing, that presently . . .

Prabhupāda: One lady . . . She is Subash Bose's niece, Lalitā Bose. Because these family are very intimately . . . Subash Bose's family and Nehru family. So she calls Indira didi, means "elder sister." So she took me, and she gave me interview at a very critical moment, just day before that Bujhibanlal(?) was killed, and she was guarded by heavy number of police and soldier. Still, she allowed my car to enter. I am very much obliged. But it was ten minutes' time. So what Bhagavad-gītā could be discussed in ten minutes? Tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena sevayā (BG 4.34). One has to learn Bhagavad-gītā submissively, praṇipātena, paripraśnena, by sincere inquiry, and learn it from a person who has seen. Upadekṣyanti tad jñānaṁ jñāninas tattva-darśinaḥ (BG 4.34). You cannot have any knowledge, who has not seen the truth. If you say that "How it is possible that you have . . .?" We have seen through this paramparā system. The same thing: "This is pencil." I have learned it from my father, "It is pencil," that's all. You cannot call it stick; it is pencil. My father has taught that "This is pencil," I know it. That's all. It is very easy. But if one follows, his life is successful. Very easy.

D. D. Desai: So your impression is that ten minutes or whatever time is not adequate, and unless she prepares her ground for stable, continuous . . .

Prabhupāda: No, she can . . . Paripraśna. From scientific point of view, from logic, that is accepted. But if he takes blindly something, then it is not possible.

tad viddhi praṇipātena
paripraśnena sevayā
upadekṣyanti tad jñānam
jñāninas tattva-darśinaḥ
(BG 4.34)

Just like Arjuna learned Bhagavad-gītā from Kṛṣṇa. He submitted, śiṣyas te 'haṁ śādhi māṁ prapannam (BG 2.7). So in that attitude . . . But pariprasna, counter-inquiry, is allowed. Just like good logician, good scientist, one can . . . That answer is there. But if one inquires as a blind person, keeping her faith or his faith in something differently, then it is as useless. It must be flexible to the level of logic and science. Then it is very easy. That is like I explained. Kṛṣṇa said, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). So where is the difficulty? I am changing my body, so why I shall not get another body after my death? Eh? Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). And wherefrom this knowledge is coming? From Kṛṣṇa, the supreme authority. In the beginning I may not understand, but it is a fact. If you think over, you'll understand, "Yes, I am eternal. Why I am put into this difficulty, changing this body?" This is common sense. "Why I shall die? Why not stop death?" That is knowledge. That is knowledge. But then going on, (Hindi): "Everyone dies. I will die. What is that?" But why you shall die? You live. And Kṛṣṇa gives the formula: tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9). Take this process. This body is material; you have to give it up. But no more material body. Why don't you take this science, how it is possible? Why do you not contribute this science to the whole world as India's contribution? They need it. Why you go beg? Give something. In Berkeley University, one Indian student, "Swāmījī, what this hari-kīrtana will do? We require now technology." So I replied, "Yes, you have come to beg here. I have come here to give something. I am not a beggar like you." So we are working . . . Of course, we are Indian; we are poor. That is another thing. But I never went to beg something from them. I never asked them any money. I never asked them. They give me money because they understand that I am giving something. Do you know how we are selling our book? Daily, five, six lakhs rupees collected. So I am getting the money. I am giving them the knowledge. (aside:) Bring that telegram. In one week how many books we have sold? Because they're hankering after this knowledge. This is Indian culture? Or some dancing party goes, that is Indian culture?

D. D. Desai: Presently you are . . .

Prabhupāda: I am not imitating them. Of course, all credit to Vivekananda. But Vivekananda learned something from them: how to eat meat. And introduced amongst the sannyāsīs, that "There is no harm in eating meat." So Vivekananda learned something from them. And I have gone to—"Forget meat-eating." That is the difference. These boys, these young boys, just see how they have become Vaiṣṇava.

Girirāja: Would it be all right to open the window?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. No, you can open the fan, with one point. This is the real culture, original culture of India, and they are accepting it. Why not government come to my help? Without any help I am doing so much.

D. D. Desai: This is exceptionally, I would say, very creditable. Then you say . . .

Prabhupāda: We are increasing. There is opposition against our movement, and still we are increasing.

D. D. Desai: When you say, "We are poor . . ." If so . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no. So-called poor.

D. D. Desai: That's it. Because the other day when I was reading Howard Hughes and his billion-dollar life, and then also Poli(?), I can say this much, that some of our poorest of Indians are far better off than these gentlemen.

Prabhupāda: Yes, culturally we are better off. Materially, we are certainly very poor. But because we are culturally advanced, even the actual poor man, he does not feel that he is in poverty.

D. D. Desai: Yes, that is the case. That is . . . There is a basic grace in poverty.

Mrs. Desai: They are satisfied.

Prabhupāda: That is . . .

yaṁ labdhvā cāparaṁ lābhaṁ
manyate nādhikaṁ tataḥ
yasmin sthite guruṇāpi
duḥkhena na vicālyate
(BG 6.22)

This is culture. "So long I have got money, I am very happy." No! "If there is not a single farthing, still, I'll be happy." That is real culture. That can be done That is possible when one is Kṛṣṇa conscious. Yaṁ labdhvā cāparaṁ lābhaṁ. Just like Dhruva Mahārāja. He went to the forest to ask Kṛṣṇa to give him a very nice kingdom, but when he met Kṛṣṇa, Nārāyaṇa—He wanted to give him benediction—he said, svamin kṛtartho 'smi varaṁ na yace (CC Madhya 22.42): "Bās, no more vara." So we have got such things. Guruṇāpi duḥkhena na vicālyate (BG 6.22). Never disturbed. That is culture. And "So long I have got money in the pocket, I am very happy"—that is dog civilization. (laughter)

D. D. Desai: Even when there is no money, the man is . . . (indistinct)

Indian lady (3): (Hindi) What Swāmījī is saying is so true. Even a small kid can understand practically. Why these big people cannot understand these fundamental things?

Indian man: Because we are educated. So we have to uneducate ourselves to understand this.

Indian lady (3): Educated does not take away your real culture. So you may be educated, but then you are . . .

Prabhupāda: This is real culture, Bhagavad-gītā. I'm preaching that, Bhagavad-gītā as it is.

Indian lady (3): When Swāmījī says "The Supreme Personality tells," where is the doubt, and where is the basic questioning also?

Prabhupāda: I represent as it is, and it is being accepted. (Indians talking at once)

Indian man: Swāmījī, what is the way out now? We have understood the present position, and you have also realized. You have seen the . . . (indistinct) . . . And I don't want to take . . . I know that this ten-minutes' talk will not bring any satisfaction on either side. Now that has put me into a new thinking, that she's presently more worried about the . . .

Prabhupāda: That is a politics. You must be worried.

Indian man: Political. Political matters.

Prabhupāda: You must be worried. That is material world. So, so long you are in the material platform, you must be worried. There is no exception. And I have seen in that time, how much worried she was at that time.

Indian man: Worried.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So it does not mean because she is Prime Minister, there is no worry. It is not possible.

Indian man: She's very worried.

Prabhupāda: Everyone is very worried.

D. D. Desai: More worried. (laughs)

Prabhupāda: Everyone is very worried. That is described by Prahlāda Mahārāja. When Hiraṇyakaśipu . . . After all, they are father and son. He inquired from the son, "My dear son, what best thing you have learned?" So he said, "My dear . . ." He did not say "My dear father." He said, "The best of the asuras." He addressed his father, "The best of the asuras." (laughter) Tat sādhu manye asura varya dehinam (SB 7.5.5): "My dear the best of the asuras . . ." He was the best of the asuras. "So I think that this is best education . . ." Tat sādhu manye 'sura-varya dehinām. Dehināṁ sadā samudvignam asad-grahāt. (break) We have got good rooms like this, not that one has to go to the forest. Even in the Vṛndāvana we have got very good room, but nobody's coming. This is the position. After fiftieth year, voluntarily one must commit civil suicide—no family. And that is Vedic. But he will think of family up to the point of being killed by this revolver. (laughter) This is going on. Even Gandhi, what to speak of others. He presented himself very tyāgī, but unless he was killed, he did not give up his ambition: "How my sons, how my countrymen will be happy?" And what happiness you can give? You are not God. Who is taking care of them. But this is māyā. He was thinking, "If I am not there, then whatever I have got, it will be finished."

D. D. Desai: See, after Mahatmajī had got his independence . . .

Prabhupāda: What independence?

D. D. Desai: The independence was obtained, and some people asked him . . .

Prabhupāda: I asked him!

D. D. Desai: I don't . . . (break) (end)