770202 - Conversation B - Bhuvanesvara
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They say the intelligence is a molecular interaction, in nervous system, in the brain. So . . .
Prabhupāda: The interaction, but not . . . that is not the brain.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They say the brain is . . .
Prabhupāda: Two, two physical elements, just like electricity contacting. The electricity as it is, it is not that wire, or the physical things. It is subtle.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, it is subtle, but . . .
Prabhupāda: So what . . . whether . . . this subtle cannot be seen, but the thing is there.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is actually true. That is a fact. Say, for example, in the law of gravitation, that Newton's laws of gravitation, though the mathematical formula can be established, but we do not know how it acts. It is . . .
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yeah, it is unseen, and it is . . . it is inconceivable but it, it is there. That science admits that. Even Newton admitted.
Prabhupāda: So why not show?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yeah, that's what actually we are bringing to our discussion . . .
Svarūpa Dāmodara: . . . that these laws exist, but these laws are beyond our knowledge, or beyond our comprehension. In other words, it is acintya. It is inconceivable, but these laws are there.
Prabhupāda: Not that acintya, but cintya, because we can understand there is.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yeah. We . . .
Prabhupāda: But neither, not within our experiment.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yeah, that is, yeah, that is the point.
Prabhupāda: So it is not acintya, it is cintya.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yeah. We, we perceive that . . . that these laws exist, but how these laws existing we do not know.
Prabhupāda: That is another thing, but you have to admit that they . . . it exists.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yeah, it exists.
Prabhupāda: Similarly, we have to accept, then, the soul exists.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yeah. In fact, that is the point that we are also bringing. The soul in the . . .
Prabhupāda: Exists. The soul exists, the mind exists, the intelligence exists, although they are not perceivable by these gross senses.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: And the consciousness exists.
Prabhupāda: Everything exists. That we have to place in your scientific discussion, how this subtle situation carrying the soul. Above that subtle situation is gross situation. That is this body. So they are stressing on the gross situation, but subtle situation they have no knowledge, but it is perceived daily.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is true.
Prabhupāda: Hmm. That we have to talk. The subtle situation can carry the soul to the spiritual world. As there is spirit and matter, two things, aparā and parā, that is we can perceive, and we get it from Kṛṣṇa's statement, aparā parā. So in via media between this parā and aparā, I have this subtle situation. So if the subtle situation is spiritualized, then we are . . . the soul is transferred to the spiritual world. This we have to prove, or have to write in scientific journal. They are seeing simply the gross situation, but the soul is being carried by the subtle situation. Therefore they are thinking this gross situation, body, is finished, everything is finished. That's not the fact.
- tathā dehāntara-prāptir
- dhīras tatra na muhyati
- (BG 2.13)
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So it is the drawback.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is the drawback in science.
Prabhupāda: Everything drawback. Simply bluffing, that's all. Theirs is . . . Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇā (SB 5.18.12). Anyone who is not a devotee of the Lord, he is, his whole life, in trouble. He is, he has no value. When he is condemned so much, duṣkṛtinaḥ, mūḍhāḥ, narādhama, māyayāpahṛta, what can he be? So condemned. Most mischievous, a rascal, ass, lowest of the mankind. And so he has passed so many degrees, and māyayāpahṛta-jñānāḥ—finished. He is so condemned. So anyone who has no knowledge about this Kṛṣṇa consciousness, we don’t give any position. Any position. It is not possible. Visaje payane jnane. When a man becomes mad, court position, he may be high-court judge, but because he has become mad, he has no position. He's useless. You may say that he is a high-court judge. Now that's all right, but in his present position, because he is mad: no value. I have seen. My father-in-law's house, in front there was a very, a famous scientist, Indumadhana Mullik, you know him?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Mullik?
Prabhupāda: Indumadhana Mullik. He was engineer, medical practitioner and scientist. Of course he was practicing as a medical man. And a great scholar. Great scholar, he, he used to study; he passed in engineering examination, medical examination and ordinary M.A. Ph.D. like that. Later on he became so mad, and naked he was running on the street, in front of my father-in-law's house. So what was his value? The same man, being so much educated in so many . . . But when he became mad, who cares for him? So this . . . Anyone who is under the influence of this material energy is like that. Although he is part and parcel of God, he is mad.
- piśācī pāile yena mati-cchanna haya
- māyā-grasta jīvera se dasau
As soon as a man becomes mad, then he is finished. And whatever he'll speak, ah, that is all madness. It is . . . there is no importance. This is mad. Basic principle is mad.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: The, the madness that scientists are experiencing different from that. They are illusioned, in the sense that they know very little of . . . some part of law, natural law. Then from there they try to extrapolate, extrapolate to different degrees.
Prabhupāda: They may speculate for so many ways, but just to understand. A very educated man, when he becomes mad, then we say: no value. It is like that.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: For example . . .
Prabhupāda: You cannot give him the same position. Say a high-court judge, just like this. When he has become mad you cannot give him that he will sit down and . . . No. That is not. Finished. Again, by treatment, if you come, if you bring him in sanity, then he can work. That the potentially, potencity, the potency is not finished; but since he has become mad, his qualification is finished.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is also our argument.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: For example, in a circle, like, let's say a big circle. Now science, many mathematician can find any cohesion forming, just taking small, two points forming a . . . follow the straight line, cohesion of straight line. Now from there he can conclude that if you continue that circle, or that circle along . . . along the circumference, it may be a straight line, but actually it is a circle. So his first knowledge, that two points forming a . . . an equation of straight line, that's not going to give the circumference of the circle. In other words, he concludes that instead of a circle it may be a straight line. So we are saying that . . . so our knowledge of the certain thing is very limited. From there, if we extrapolate something which is beyond our actual knowledge, then it becomes . . . just becomes false.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Beyond our knowledge is false. It is false. But the . . . beyond our knowledge, when he receives from authority, the same example: it is beyond my knowledge who is my father, but if we receive it from mother it is correct. The subject matter it is beyond my knowledge, but if I receive the knowledge from the right person, then it is correct. Avaroha-panthāvaroha. There are so many things in our conditional state beyond our knowledge. Therefore we have to take shelter of Veda, śruti. This is our process: Veda. That knowledge is perfect, coming from God, by paramparā system: from Kṛṣṇa to Brahmā, Brahmā to Nārada, Nārada to Vyāsa, Vyāsa, like that. That this is . . . this, this is perfect. Otherwise, this way it is all imperfect. That way it is perfect.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: The deductive knowledge.
Prabhupāda: Hmm. That is perfect.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: We have a chapter on descending process.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: The right process of acquiring knowledge must be descending.
Prabhupāda: Avaroha. So the avaroha-panthā, that knowledge is aham ādir hi devānāṁ (BG 10.2). Kṛṣṇa says devānāṁ. In this material world the first deva is Brahmā, and . . . First deva is Viṣṇu. So Viṣṇu and Kṛṣṇa is the same, but actually others, it begins from Brahmā. From Brahmā, Śiva, Nārada, like that. They are all devas. So Kṛṣṇa says, aham ādir hi devānāṁ. Therefore this knowledge is coming directly from Kṛṣṇa through the paramparā system, and the Bhagavad-gītā is the same thing: it is the Lord coming down still to facilitate the business. He is speaking—that is recorded—directly to the human being, Arjuna. Therefore, this is the right source of knowledge.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: We’re trying to do some experiments on . . . on biology to support our statements. So actually yesterday there was one . . . one doctorate here, and he stayed long and we talked together. He had Ph.D. from the United States.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Found out he was in the audience.
Prabhupāda: In science?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yeah, he was in agriculture. He had his Ph.D. from the University of Missouri. And I was talking about doing some experiments with him. I wanted to do this experiment to prove that life in the living body, the . . . the chemical reactions in the living body, is different from normal chemistry that we know. In fact there are some examples, and there is a French scientist called Guerin in . . . in France. He is doing some experiment on, along these lines, and I wrote him a letter saying how all, all of his latest findings. He has written some small two books called biological transmutations. It's mainly in France, but French, but it's translated in English. And he wrote me back saying that some of his findings are beyond our chemistry that we know of at this time. And so . . . And the letters are very useful in our concept that life is non-physical, or non-chemical, to prove that on purely scientific basis, that there . . .
Prabhupāda: Non-chemical, non-physical, it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Non-chemical . . .
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, but we want to prove it, to show it . . .
Svarūpa Dāmodara: . . . on experimental basis. So it's . . . it's a very simple experiment. We germinate some, some seeds, like barley or rice, and then we calculate the amount of, let's say calcium, contains some elements, calcium and magnesium. Now we calculate the amount of calcium before it germinates, the total amount of calcium. Now it, it can be germinated in a, in a filter paper—it's called "ashless"; means it's completely composed of pure cellulose. And then we germinate and we put water. That water is completely devoid of calcium; it's very . . . called deionized water. In other words, it removes all the ions like calcium and magnesium, and then it germinates. And when it germinates, if we analyze the calcium content, then they found that . . . Guerin found that the amount of calcium has, has increased. So we, we do not know how that calcium is coming, and that is beyond chemistry, the, our present knowledge of chemistry, and if we can show that . . .
Prabhupāda: That is due to germination. That soul has come, germinated, and it has produced chemical.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. Something, it is coming some . . . from somewhere.
Prabhupāda: And that is soul.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: And another . . . there is another nice experiment. There is a parasite called Spanish moss, it's available very much in Florida. All the, from the trees this moss is coming down. And he found that the Spanish moss grows in copper wire, and then it produces iron. So he has some nice experiments, and this can be done in department of agriculture.
Prabhupāda: That means life produces matter.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. This is . . .
Prabhupāda: Not the matter produces life. This is established. When there is life, these matters come out—iron, chemicals, everything.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: There are some experiments along those lines which . . . And there is another nice experiment which is shown by a German scientist. He just died not too long ago. His name is Hauschka. He was doing some experiments in the moon, in the moonlight. So what he did was, he measured the . . . the amount of a certain element in a plant, a flower—don’t exactly remember—and he measures according to the, the waxing and the waning of the moon, and it becomes maximum in the full moon, at the full moon, full moon night, and then he just . . .
Prabhupāda: All vegetables . . .
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, the vegetables.
Prabhupāda: . . . they are influenced by moon . . .
Svarūpa Dāmodara: And this is a nice experiment. It is a curve.
Prabhupāda: . . . moonshine. Similarly, the shining brahmajyoti is full of living entities.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So these are beyond science. These are beyond . . .
Prabhupāda: Not beyond. You do not know that science. Not beyond.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: "Beyond science" means beyond our present science . . .
Svarūpa Dāmodara: . . . scientific knowledge.
Prabhupāda: Present science is imperfect. It is in science, within science. That is spiritual science. Not beyond science. Jñānam vijñānam. That is vijñānam. Therefore I have named the magazine Sa-vijñānam. They are busy with jñānam. Jñānaṁ me paramaṁ guhyaṁ yad vijñāna-samanvita. And the, the Bhagavad-gītā is also there. What is that? Aham te pravakṣyāmy anasūyave, jñānaṁ vijñāna-sahitaṁ pravakṣyāmy anasūyave. Find out this verse. Where he is?
Devotee: Paṇḍitjī? He's coming.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So be in contact with all these big, big scientists all over the country, and by correspondence agitate this science.
- jñānaṁ te 'haṁ sa-vijñānam
- idaṁ vakṣyāmy aśeṣataḥ
- yaj jñātvā neha bhūyo 'nyaj
- jñātavyam avaśiṣyate
- (BG 7.2)
"I shall now declare unto you in full this knowledge, both phenomenal and nomenal, by knowing which there shall remain nothing further to be known." Śrīla Prabhupāda said that we should . . . we should translate this as practical scientific knowledge, the title of the journal, Sa-vijñānam. So we write within the parentheses, "Practical scientific knowledge." Is that, uh . . .?
Prabhupāda: That's nice.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Then the Americans will understand it.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yeah, that's what we’ll be doing. I will go to . . . as soon as I finish this. Then we have a desire to meet all these scholars, in all fields.
Prabhupāda: You should, all universities you go. All universities. You three or four, you go. Talk with them. First you will write scholarly.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Some time ago three of us . . .
Prabhupāda: It is called viśva-vijaya. For . . . formerly learned scholar he used to do that. Digvijaya. Digvijaya. "I have got this knowledge." You challenge, "Come on! Defeat me, or I defeat you." So whoever is defeated, he becomes his disciple. Digvijaya. Just like one digvijaya paṇḍita came in Navadvīpa, to defeat the learned scholar of Navadvīpa, and Caitanya Mahāprabhu defeated.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Kashmiri.
Prabhupāda: Kashmiri. So this was the system. So you go out, digvijaya, travel all over the world. Now you are qualified to speak; they must defeat you. Or if they are defeated, they must, must accept. This is wanted. Digvijaya paṇḍita.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: A few months ago I went to Boston . . .
Svarūpa Dāmodara: . . . and three of us went to MIT.
Prabhupāda: Oh, MIT, that, yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: We went to the, the . . .
Prabhupāda: I challenged them when I . . .
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Ah.
Prabhupāda: "Heh, where is your technologic department, a dead man can be given life?" (laughter)
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They have a big building, Śrīla Prabhupāda, called Artificial Intelligence, Department of Artificial Intelligence. So we, we just went, just to see what they’re doing. First of all they didn’t allow, they didn’t want us to, to come. Then we requested that we come from far, and we are interested in mathematics and in computer, in science, and we want to know what this artificial intelligence that you are doing. Then finally they allowed us to . . . to come in. So we went in, and there was a Ph.D. student who was doing his Ph.D. work on . . . on this computer. Then he showed us all the, all the labs they have, and then . . .
Prabhupāda: Huge arrangement.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. Then we started talking about intelligence, what is intelligence, and then we thought that very intelligence, there must be consciousness. And then we had a round table, and some sort of a conference, and he was, he was telling us that the intelligence, artificial intelligence, what they mean is that in the future they will have cars or airplanes driven—let's say airplanes—driven without a pilot, cars driven without a driver.
Prabhupāda: That can be done. That can be done.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That can be done.
Prabhupāda: That is . . . No, that can be done. Just like they are doing now.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So just like they are sending sputnik, but the working is going on in the laboratory.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So that's very . . . Intelligence, there is no intelligence. The intelligence yes, in the laboratory.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, that is the point.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: And then we said, then your . . . the name "artificial intelligence" as a . . . the title itself is wrong.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: It shouldn’t be used.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They have many plans, and they have many dollars to spend with, and their faculty was about some thirty or thirty-five members, professors. They had about twenty-five students, graduate students. Then finally they said that, that this, this student, he said they have been trying to do so many things, but they are failing in so many ways.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: And then I said why do you, why do you spend time like this? He, he said it's, it's just for fun. Get money and . . .
Prabhupāda: Just see, how foolish they are.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They have to keep themselves busy doing something.
Prabhupāda: That is their position. They have no intelligence, still they have to pose themselves as intelligent, and draw money, that's all. Pose themselves as intelligent amongst the fools and take money from government. This is going on.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That's actually true. They are getting a lot of money from the government.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Doing all these things.
Prabhupāda: Especially in America.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: In America research is the second biggest industry.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Then let them research honestly. When they are failure in their research, they must accept the knowledge in the Vedas. Then it will be success. They must admit their failure. Your business is to prove that they are failure. Then that is our triumph. It is not success; it is failure.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yeah, actually that is true. It can be proved just from their own results. Just like Śrīla Prabhupāda once told us that we should use . . . we should utilize their own findings to prove that they are wrong.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Actually, that is, that . . . It's possible. There are many scientific truths which are not reported. Something which they cannot explain, they just keep it hidden. But there are many facts like that. So we were compiling. We have in fact a chapter called "The errors and the defects in science." So we’re bringing all these errors and all these cheating . . .
Prabhupāda: That is sufficient for us. Bring their defects.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Even our mathematician, Sadāpūta, he found out that Newton himself cheated in his . . .
Prabhupāda: They must cheat. Any conditioned soul, he must cheat, because he is not perfect. He must cheat. To keep his prestige he must cheat. The four defects are there: illusion, mistakes, cheating and imperfect. Bhrama, pramāda, karaṇāpāṭava.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So when they bring out these, these hidden defects, then since these are there but these are not normally reported to . . . to outside, but if you bring out, then they become quiet, because they were . . .
Prabhupāda: That they, they are cheating; they must be quiet. Maunaṁ samyati lakṣaṇam. As soon as they become quiet, that means admit, "Yes, I’ve cheated." Otherwise he will refute. He knows that "I am cheating in these points." So when somebody catches him, "You have cheated here," then he keeps quiet. That means admits. That we have to do. Simply to point out the defects. Bhrama, pramāda, karaṇāpāṭava, vipralipsā: illusion, mistake, imperfect senses and cheating. These things are the property among the conditioned souls. What he’ll learn, and what he’ll teach? His position is mistake, illusion, imperfect sense and cheating. Anyone. Only one who is devotee, he will hesitate. Therefore one who is not devotee, he will go on with these four assets, rascal assets: mistake, illusion, imperfect sense and cheating. This is their position. Falsely they want to pose themselves as very learned scholar. You can keep yourselves as false prestige, but why you mislead others?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: There is also, we are saying that you’re . . . you’re saying a little too much. You’re going a little too far.
Prabhupāda: (laughing) Yes, beyond your capacity.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So for example their announcement . . .
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is called "A dwarf is trying to catch moon."
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So there is . . . actually there is no foundation that life should come from chemicals. That, because if we analyze purely from scientific angle, scientific knowledge, there is no way that one can say like that. And with the knowledge that we have at the moment they are saying a little too much. They know this little, but they extrapolate so much, and they are concluding . . .
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. So we are saying that let's be honest . . .
Svarūpa Dāmodara: . . . and . . .
Svarūpa Dāmodara: . . . try to analyze this from purely . . . pure knowledge.
Prabhupāda: "Why you become dishonest and at the same time big scientist? How is that?"
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Not only that they themselves are dishonest; they teach this to the students.
Prabhupāda: Again . . .
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Millions of students.
Prabhupāda: . . . cheating. That is cheating. To keep their position. So at least if you can prove that these are dishonest and cheater, that will be our triumph.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I think it would be a good idea for them to write articles in newspapers also. Newspapers, magazines.
Prabhupāda: Eh, that . . .
Svarūpa Dāmodara: We are trying to put many articles in many scientific journals too.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Plus . . .
Prabhupāda: That is . . .
Svarūpa Dāmodara: . . . our journal.
Prabhupāda: . . . that is more important. Ordinary newspaper has no value. If you write in the scientific journal, then it is very valuable.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Attract these scientists, sincere.
Prabhupāda: Scientists and their leaders.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: There is a journal very recently published in science.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's called The Foundations of Physics, started only about six or seven years ago. There, they are a group of scientists like sometimes . . .
Prabhupāda: Scientific American, there is one . . .
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, Scientific American is also there, but . . .
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Same thing.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yeah. We subscribe Scientific American, and we use some of the . . . They have very nice pictures.
Prabhupāda: I, from 1917, or '16, when I entered college, we saw in our college, Scientific American. The . . . In Scientific American, a long, long ago, in this 1916, '17, I saw one picture that a human being is engaged constructing big skyscraper building framework, iron, but he has lost his knowledge of soul. I saw this picture. He is busy, externally, for constructing framework of a big skyscraper building, but he does not know what is his spirit. This I saw; I remember. It is thoughtful. He does not know what he is, what is going to happen. Nothing. Mūḍhāḥ nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ paramam param. And for flimsy material activities he is losing his opportunity of life. And we are trying to save him, that "This is not important. Real importance is to know yourself, tathā dehāntara-prāptir (BG 2.13)." But they are being misled to be captivated by the huge iron structure. What this iron structure will help you? It will remain where you have constructed. You have to go with your subtle position and enter into another gross position that is different from this gross position. You are lost. (pause) So what about that doctor from California? He is engaged yet somewhere?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, he is not from California; from Missouri.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: The . . . the doctor that came yesterday?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yeah, he is involved in some research department in agriculture here. He is coming today. He came . . . He said he always wanted to see Śrīla Prabhupāda in the United States. He came back in '74, and he said he never got an opportunity to, but he, he heard about Śrīla Prabhupāda, and he always wanted to see Śrīla Prabhupāda, but he, he didn’t get the opportunity, he said. So he said he was very happy yesterday. And he came and he praised very highly of Śrīla Prabhupāda and spoke many nice things. And he even had the bead, neck bead. He said he got that bead in the United States. Friend of his gave him. And he always worshiped Jagannātha, Balarāma and Subhadrā. He had pictures.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: And he was telling me that when he was doing some experiments in agriculture, he always, when he had difficulty in doing the experiment, he would pray, and he said the next day it will be all right. (laughter) And, and he is very Kṛṣṇa conscious.
Prabhupāda: So he has become devotee.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. So I requested him to do some experiments. I am going to supply him all the details to do the experiment.
Prabhupāda: Let him join this paper . . .
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yeah, and I, I told him that . . .
Prabhupāda: . . . Sa-vijñānam.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: . . . we will publish it, and . . .
Prabhupāda: You recruit all big, big scientists to write articles in our paper.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: That will be very nice.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: There's good chance to recruit people, scientists, in India, because a lot of scientists are very religious.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. India, anyone who is born in India, he is naturally Kṛṣṇa conscious. Simply he has . . . he has been misled by the so-called scientists. Otherwise everyone is God conscious. That is the special prerogative to take birth in India. Even the third-class, fourth-class man, he is God conscious. Just see, in Vṛndāvana one day in the morning walk I entered one farmer's land. It was vacant; we were walking. So the proprietor with his man immediately came out, began to thank me: "Sir, it is our great fortune, sir, you have come to my land. And I live right here." So I immediately compared that "This is India. Had it been in USA, I am a trespasser."
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Mmm-hmm. Come out with a gun.
Prabhupāda: That is the difference. He felt obliged that I have gone through his land; it has become purified. And in the West, "Oh, you are trespasser. I shall kill you!"
Svarūpa Dāmodara: "This is a private property."
Prabhupāda: I could immediately understand, still Indian, they will . . . They do not know how to honor a spiritual person. In the villages still, if a sannyāsī goes, he may sit down underneath a tree, but all the villagers they will come and invite him, "Please come to my home. Take your prasādam." (break)
Prabhupāda: . . .they are exploiting, and the scientists, that somewhere, what is that?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Poona.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Or going to Rajneesh.
Prabhupāda: So people have lost their faith, naturally.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: We would also like to make an experiment in India. So I was discussing with Gopāla Kṛṣṇa Prabhu yesterday about giving some lectures in, in the universities. There is one, one scientist in Bhabha Atomic Research Institute in Bombay. He is a member of this International Society for the Study of Origin of Life From Chemicals. He is an active member in the editorial board, and we wanted to give a lecture in that, uh . . .
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Arrange lecture.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, I invited him. And also I just remembered, one of the leading scientists at Bhabha Research Institute, he has taken all of Prabhupāda's books.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Ah.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I read in the papers about two months ago the Congress president gave a lecture. He was criticizing scientists for having so much faith in religion. So the point is that even leading Indian scientists, they are openly expressing their faith in religion and God, and the government . . .
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, they are dis . . . discouraging.
Prabhupāda: Dangerous government. It is the duty of the government to make people God conscious. Instead they are making: forget God.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually, in Bombay and Delhi it's all the Indian cultural activities.
Prabhupāda: Hmm. So you make it a point: six months outside, six months here. And all your expenditure will be spent by the society, that there is no question of spending money. We spend money like anything.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: If you approve, BBT India can pay for his travels in India.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, everything. We shall beg and pay, if there is no income.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Hmm.
Prabhupāda: But they must be allowed to go from place to place. That is the real . . . real business.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Hmm.
Prabhupāda: Payment will come. Kṛṣṇa will pay.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: In India, BBT can pay.
Prabhupāda: That BBT will pay, that is Kṛṣṇa has given us this chance. We are selling our books unexpectedly; therefore we shall have never scarcity of money. Never. Either in India or abroad. Whatever you are doing by selling these books, that this is a great opportunity. We are not existing like others, by . . . simply by the contribution of others. Now Kṛṣṇa has given us a chance, an exchange.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: This is a very good idea, if he spends six months in India meetings.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He can attract . . .
Prabhupāda: Recruit friends to make your party strong.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. We need.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: We need many.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Like in India you have a better chance of getting . . .
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . find some friends.
Prabhupāda: In India you will have better chance, yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That immediately when I go tomorrow to, uh, today to Calcutta or to make an appointment in Bose Institute to speak . . .
Prabhupāda: Yes, Bose Institute, very . . .
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They have a good biology, life sciences department.
Prabhupāda: Bose was a devotee.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Ahh.
Prabhupāda: He believed strongly in God. Jagadish Chandra . . . I have seen him, in my childhood.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yeah, that's, that's next to our, the Calcutta University of Science where I studied. So I have my professor there, in there.
Prabhupāda: Oh. Bose's . . .
Svarūpa Dāmodara: It is next . . .
Prabhupāda: Not Calcutta University?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: No.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Just next to. It is next to, let's say . . .
Prabhupāda: Science Institute.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Ninety-two . . . It's called Science College.
Prabhupāda: Science College.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That's 92 Upper Circle Road.
Prabhupāda: Yes, Science College. University is the College Street . . .
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yeah, University is College Street.
Prabhupāda: But that is a department of University, Science College. And next to that . . .
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Bose Institute.
Prabhupāda: Sir Prishidar(?) was in charge of the chemical department, and Sir Jagadish Chandra Bose. This, perhaps you know it, this wireless system was discovered by Bose.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yeah.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Wireless system?
Prabhupāda: Yes, radio.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But somebody else stole the secret, or . . .?
Prabhupāda: Yes, the Marconi, he took the credit.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh.
Prabhupāda: And the British government . . .
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yeah.
Prabhupāda: . . . that they did not want to give the credit to Bose. This is the history. And Bose said; I remember in the public meeting.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Even his some . . . some of his experiments, those plant experiments, on plant, that by Bose, it's printed in, uh . . .
Prabhupāda: He took up them, this plant life. After being cheated by Marconi, he took this plant life. He strongly believed, and he proved it, by machine, by scientifically. He was very respectable family . . .
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yeah, he wrote a lot in . . .
Prabhupāda: Oh, he was very extraordinarily intelligent scientist. I saw him.
Pālikā: (in background) Breakfast this morning?
Prabhupāda: At end. Chipped rice and . . . like that. Oh, he was a great man, undoubtedly India's . . . Very, very greater than Sir Prishidhar. That Prishidhar was ordinary chemist, but, but here, here is a gigantic intelligence, Dr. Jagadish Chandra Bose.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yeah, I . . . When I studied, uh . . .
Prabhupāda: (aside:) Hmm?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: . . . uhh . . .
Prabhupāda: (aside:) It doesn’t matter.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: When I was studying my Masters in Science College, there was another professor, he was, he was very good. His name is Guha, yes, Vishi Guha.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: He said he was just about to get Nobel Prize on vitamin C, but somebody got it. He studied in England, and he was the head of a department in this Applied Chemistry and Science College, and he was, he was very philosophic in his way of teaching . . .
Prabhupāda: Bose was also philosopher, combined scientist.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: And he was always telling me that . . . Because he liked me, somehow, because I come from Manipur, and I was the only Manipuri . . .
Prabhupāda: Now, Manipur, make a very enlightened country. I have got very good respect for your country, because Arjuna is there, Arjuna's son. They will make an ideal country, Indian culture. I wanted to go only for this reason, that you take it very seriously. Make it a center of scientific Vaiṣṇava culture.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: In Manipur?
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is my aim. Otherwise I would have not gone. But I want to establish this kṣatriya, give protection to the scientific Vaiṣṇava culture. Make a . . . I will give ideas how to do it. Simply you have to agree to do that, then I will give you idea how to do it.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That means I have to spend part of . . .
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Part in Manipur, part in the Institute?
Prabhupāda: Why not?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: In Washington?
Prabhupāda: Why not? We want a stronghold of this culture, and I think it will be possible in Manipur. Daiva-varṇāśrama make. There must be first-class brāhmaṇas, first-class kṣatriyas, first-class vaiśyas and first-class śūdras also. These are my ideas. The whole world will see that here is real culture, Vedic culture. People are inclined, because I could understand this when the Governor of Punjab, as Governor, with his troop, he came to see me. He came to see me in Vṛndāvana, and he came to see me in Chandigarh. And because he has got Vaiṣṇava spirit, in spite of his becoming Governor—I am ordinary man—he came to see me in official, officially, with his adjutant, with their car . . .
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No.
Prabhupāda: In Chandigarh.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Chowdhury.
Prabhupāda: Chowdhury, yes. That's right. So I could understand that Manipur has got great potency of bhakti-mārg. They are born Babhruvāhana; you descendent of Babhruvāhana, Arjuna's son. So let there be at least one country, ideal brāhmaṇa, ideal kṣatriya. You people are submissive to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. I have seen in Vṛndāvana and Navadvīpa, and many, many Manipuris.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: I also saw in Jagannātha Puri. I went day before yesterday . . .
Svarūpa Dāmodara: . . . and the pāṇḍās were telling me that . . . In the beginning I said they can . . . I cannot go inside the temple. That I, that I told them that I am from Manipur, and immediately they send me to the . . . We have the Manipuri house there. That's on the west gate of the temple. So we had two, and they immediately took me and the . . . inside the temple and prasādam, Jagannātha prasādam, and that's very nice.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: And then we have this rāsamalai.
Prabhupāda: That there, Jagannātha temple, they are now against ISKCON. As soon as they say the member of ISKCON . . .
Svarūpa Dāmodara: I have just said I am ISKCON, so a little hesitant, the beginning, that . . . Then immediately I said I, I am also from Manipur. So then we had this Manipuri house, big house, and they just put a temple inside, and I stayed there for about an hour or so, and I had a long talk with the . . . this, the man he's . . .
Prabhupāda: Very nice house?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, it's nice, and it's being constructed also. They are going to make it bigger for guests and for others to come and stay. And this man, he was eighty-one years old, just like Śrīla Prabhupāda. He's from Manipur. He was a medical doctor before. And I didn’t know him. I heard his name in Manipur, because he had established many schools in his name, and his name is Boton Sanah(?). And then we started talking about Prabhupāda, said that he has heard about this Vaiṣṇavism in the United States, and so he was very interested to hear about Śrīla Prabhupāda. And I told him about Śrīla Prabhupāda, that started about ten years ago, and it's all over the world now by Śrīla Prabhupāda's mercy. And he was very interested in hearing more, and he wanted to hear more. He asked me to stay longer, but . . .
Svarūpa Dāmodara: . . . couldn’t stay.
Prabhupāda: Then see how much interested these Manipuris. So with the cooperation of Manipuris we can make a strong . . . (indistinct) . . . How is the climate now there?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Climate is quite pleasant, though in the winter it's a little cold.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: But otherwise it is mild throughout the year.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: It is, in summer it is . . . we’re never hot, like Calcutta or Bombay. It's always mild. But in winter it's a little cold, just like, just like California in some, in some parts, in California.
Prabhupāda: What is the staple food there? Rice?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. Rice and fruits. We have this . . .
Prabhupāda: Good water?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. Mostly.
Prabhupāda: In Assam they say there is that fever. What is that? Black fever?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: No. We don’t have any fever.
Prabhupāda: In Manipur they don’t.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's . . . actually it's a very healthy, healthy place . . .
Svarūpa Dāmodara: . . . because of hills. And still they’re doing the pineapple season that's in . . . starts in June . . .
Svarūpa Dāmodara: . . . and these, the hill, the hillsides, all covered with pineapples. We can see from, from the plane. It's all . . .
Prabhupāda: Other fruits grow?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Pineapples, oranges and jackfruits, and many other, like mangoes.
Prabhupāda: What about coconut? No?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: We do not grow coconut.
Prabhupāda: Other fruits, the . . . is . . . Jackfruit is there?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yeah, plenty of jackfruits, and different varieties of oranges.
Prabhupāda: All the year jackfruit? No.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, not all the year. Jackfruit is there, special season is there . . .
Prabhupāda: In the summer.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: . . . during Janmāṣṭamī.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Janmāṣṭamī we have to buy some jackfruit.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. Plenty of mangoes. And all the apples are coming from outside.
Prabhupāda: Rice? Good quality rice?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, we have rice. We have this black rice also.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, you have seen this black rice?
Prabhupāda: Black rice? What it is?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Black. It's completely black.
Prabhupāda: Black rice?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yeah. And it is . . . it has a natural flavor, and it is . . . it is a must for, especially a religious ceremony.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: It is, it is very good with milk.
Prabhupāda: Oh. Paramannam.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yeah. And . . . (laughs)
Prabhupāda: The milk is also available?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, yes. It has its own flavor, very nice flavor.
Prabhupāda: Flavor . . . flavor means very good rice. Basmati. So every . . . by God's creation everything is nice, but these rascals they have made everything bad, these so-called scientists.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: In Manipur also I have, I have seen changing the situation. Now the younger generation, like I talked with quite a few, and they are somehow attracted to the Western thought.
Prabhupāda: Everyone is attracted. Everyone is attracted.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Even the communist countries are changing to the Western thought.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Even in communist countries the youth is always after Western records, Western culture, Western dresses, Western movies. Like Russia and all these countries are more orthodox in many respects compared to America and Western Europe, but the younger generation, they always want to copy the new designs of clothes which come from Paris and America, in records, their habits.
Prabhupāda: (aside:) So we shall go now? Do something now. This Kṛṣṇa's business. Print books ’round, all over the world. Challenge them: "Come on! Come on rascal scientist." Even this Dr. Radhakrishnan, (laughing) he was also captivated by the scientists. He told in a meeting.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Radhakrishnan?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: I have seen his Bhagavad-gītā.
Prabhupāda: That was his business.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Previously, when Radhakrishnan's Gītā appeared, they had a very simple cover. Now the publishers have come out with a new edition of the Radhakrishnan Gītā, and they have copied your . . . you. They have put a picture of Kṛṣṇa and Arjuna on the cover.
Prabhupāda: How is that?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Beautiful picture. So it is . . .
Prabhupāda: Because it is not selling now. (laughter)
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I have, but it is in many . . . it is in almost every store. But they have copied your approach. They have put a very beautiful picture of Kṛṣṇa and Arjuna on the cover.
Prabhupāda: They have imitated my picture, my book, means they are not . . .
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.
Prabhupāda: . . . selling.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Now they are trying to sell this way. But they are in many stores.
Prabhupāda: But, that he is known.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.
Prabhupāda: People demand Radhakrishnan. He is a great scholar, but now the sale is reducing, therefore they are imitating.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Their Gītā sells for about ten or fifteen rup . . . fifteen rupees I think, so our soft-bound Gītā will compete with that Gītā.
Devotee: For what do you sell it?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Soft-bound they will sell in the stores for fifteen.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: This Gītā, or this, this one?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No, we’ve got a new one.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, another one.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The abridged edition with . . .
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, I see.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . plenty of color plates. Plus plastic covers, and presentation . . .
Prabhupāda: He was a renowned scholar, so he has written; generally public goes to purchase.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.
Prabhupāda: As a scholar he is known all over the world.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: The last, last year at the University of Emery, this, the head of the Department of Religion, his name is Fenton . . .
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: . . . he has become a good friend of mine since I was there. So he was teaching Bhagavad-gītā, but he was taking Radhakrishnan's . . .
Prabhupāda: Yes . . .
Svarūpa Dāmodara: . . . copy. But he, but he, he said to the students that there are many things which are not correct in that Radhakrishnan's . . .
Prabhupāda: Everything is incorrect. (laughter) He did not know anything about Bhagavad-gītā.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: But he has admitted that from Bhagavad-gītā it is difficult to prove God is impersonal.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Radhakrishnan?
Prabhupāda: He has admitted. (break)
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . they stress on that.
Prabhupāda: Then they will have to decide what is the nature of it. (break)
Prabhupāda: (kīrtana in background) It doesn’t matter. Karmaṇy evādhikāras te mā phaleṣu (BG 2.47). Whether one is converted or not, but we must go on with our duties.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Actually our . . . The other scientist and mathematician, once he remarked that so much is available just from the second chapter of Bhagavad-gītā. So if we know at least few chapters, how . . . how much knowledge that we can, uh . . .
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. It's unlimited.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Unlimited.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Actually, we are just taking this nainaṁ chindanti śastrāṇi (BG 2.23), non-physical, non-chemical, and we will, we will just corroborate that, that statement from all their modern scientific findings. And it seems that it's working.
Prabhupāda: The Supreme Lord personally speaking.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Who can be more, greater authority? Now others may say whatever they like, but we know He is the greatest authority. So where is the mistake? (long pause)
Svarūpa Dāmodara: He gave a . . . We went together to the University of Florida, Gainesville. He gave a lecture in the Department of Physics. And the students and the professor saw when we are speaking, and he made a calculation that life cannot come, say, given so much time, and the calculation came about from ten to the one: one hundred and sixty-seven billion years.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So the physics professor, right away when he saw the slide, he said, "That's completely fallacious, completely wrong." That's what, something like, he was saying like that. Then he immediately said, "Let's wait for a moment and see how these things come out." So we showed the step by step how the calculation is done, and how the theory that chance will produce life cannot be explained in terms of just pure mathematics. So we showed slowly, and finally he came to the point that he was wrong.
Prabhupāda: That's the best ideas.
- idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥśrutasya vā
- (SB 1.5.22)
This is the real fruit of education. Nigama-kalpa-taror galitaṁ phalaṁ idam (SB 1.1.3). Nigama. Science is also nigama.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: The ripened fruit is there, this point. (chanting japa softly)
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So he was . . . Actually we were joking that now they are accusing us that we are brainwashing; now when we go out we will, we will brainwash them (laughs) . . .
Prabhupāda: It is . . .
Svarūpa Dāmodara: . . . in science.
Prabhupāda: . . . for their good. Brainwashing for their good. (long pause) If . . . If Kṛṣṇa was present, instead of brainwashing you would have brain cutting. Pauṇḍraka, Pauṇḍraka? That Pauṇḍraka, who represented as Nārāyaṇa? Kṛṣṇa just cut his head. Rascal Nārāyaṇa. Not only washing, but cutting. Can you find out that picture?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Pauṇḍraka?
Prabhupāda: Pauṇḍraka is being killed by Kṛṣṇa. (chanting japa softly) (break) . . .brahma-jñā. Jñānaṁ te 'haṁ sa-vijñānaṁ pravakṣyāmy anasūyave (BG 7.2). There cannot be view.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So we should avoid that word, "view"?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Absolute, everything absolute. We cannot entertain any view. And we have to prove that it is absolute. As soon as you say view, so many rascals will give his view, and you will be puzzled. No view. (pause) (break) Brahman means the greatest. So how there can be view? Hmm? All, all imbecile.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: View, view means that according to them, according to science, according to modern science that they know about—according to their view. We are not saying that what their, their views are . . .
Prabhupāda: But we say you do not know. Here is the real knowledge. That is speculation. So your view has no view, ahh, value.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: No basis.
Prabhupāda: A child, if he says, "This is my view," will I have to take it? A madman, if he says, "This is my view," shall that be taken? Rejected. Why you are rejecting so many so-called leaders? Even in Gandhi's . . . But we say no. Useless.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Everyone has his view.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Every rascal will give his own view. We haven’t got to accept it. That is going on. Modern world means "I think," "In my opinion," "In my view." This is going on. We don’t accept this.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Those are the words . . .
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Those are very popular words . . .
Svarūpa Dāmodara: . . . used by, usually in science, saying "my opinion," "my view."
Prabhupāda: What view? First of all, you are a victim of the material laws. What is the value of your view? This is ahaṅkāra.
- kartāham iti manyate
- (BG 3.27)
One can give view when he thinks that "I am something," kartāham iti manyate. That is vimūḍhah. He has no value. So we know what he is. He is being pulled by the ear, prakṛti, nature: "Come here. Sit down." He has to sit down. His is such independent. Then what is the value of his view?
- prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni
- guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ
- (BG 3.27)
He is acting under the laws of prakṛti. And what is his view? A man is put into the jail for criminality, and if he wants to give us some view, so I'll have to accept? You are already criminal—you are undergoing imprisonment—so what is his view?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Nobody will accept.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Nobody will accept.
Prabhupāda: No, what is the value of that view? You have become criminal. You are being punished. And your view? So,
- puruṣaḥ prakṛti-stho hi
- bhuṅkte prakṛti-jān guṇān
- kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya
- (BG 13.22)
They . . . The living entity is within the conditional material existence, and he is forced to be conducted by the three modes of material nature. So what is the value of his view? No value. At least we, Kṛṣṇa conscious, we shall not accept. That position we shall maintain: "No view, sir. Only view Kṛṣṇa's view." That's all. "What you are, your view? We don’t give you any value." Stick to this point, and try to maintain it, scientifically. Then it will be accepted. Don’t agree to make any compromise.
- mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat
- kiñcid asti dhanañjaya
- (BG 7.7)
So this is the principle. The supreme view we shall take. Why these rascals' view? We are getting knowledge from a person, nobody is greater than Him, nobody is equal to Him. So why we shall accept other nonsense view?
- mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat
- kiñcid asti dhanañjaya
- (BG 7.7)
Indian man: (Hindi)
Prabhupāda: (Hindi) For human being who has taken birth, it is duty for them, the all rascals, the whole world. (Hindi) Cats and dogs only, in the shape of human beings. (Hindi) Bhārata-bhūmite manuṣya-janma haila. (Hindi) Janma sārthaka kari' kara para-upakāra (CC Adi 9.41). Come on, Mr. Agarwal. (Hindi)
Indian man: (Hindi)
Prabhupāda: The Bharatiya culture (Hindi). Some, some persons, they say like this, but it is not correct.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yeah, that's actually what we . . .
Prabhupāda: That you reply(?). (sound of airplanes)
Svarūpa Dāmodara: We are proving their . . . their ideas in a . . . proving that it's all wrong.
Prabhupāda: That is good. Then sometimes scholars, they bring the view just to support his statement.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: That is not good. He can use . . . (indistinct)
Svarūpa Dāmodara: We also use the word "the laws of nature."
Svarūpa Dāmodara: "The laws of nature." Since science is already using "the laws of nature," we are also using "the laws of nature," but we say "higher laws of nature." There we bring Paramātmā.
Prabhupāda: The science, they do not know all the laws of nature.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They don’t know; they know very little.
Prabhupāda: Yes. They know something, laws of nature, but they do not know fully. And yet they do not know who is the lawmaker. Laws of nature can be changed—by the lawmaker. Just like we practically see, the State. Today something is going on as the law, but tomorrow he can . . . the State can change it.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So that is God: who can change it. And who cannot change it, and is forced to be under the laws of . . . he is the living being. That is the difference. Mama māyā duratyayā. So mama, Kṛṣṇa can change it. Otherwise how Kṛṣṇa can say, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi (BG 18.66)? Laws of nature is that if you have committed some sinful, you must suffer. So how Kṛṣṇa can say? Yes, He can say, because He is the Supreme. Therefore laws are changed. I cannot change; one who can change: He is God. This is understanding of God. Nobody can change.
- daivī hy eṣā guṇa-mayī
- mama māyā duratyayā
- (BG 7.14)
But, mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ.
- mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ
- sūyate sa-carācaram
- (BG 9.10)
Svarūpa Dāmodara: It is . . . It is acceptable to them when we say the laws of nature.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Here the higher, higher order laws of nature. Then, by saying that, then "What is that?" they ask. Then we introduce this Paramātmā. Then it is . . . it is thoroughly acceptable.
Prabhupāda: Not Paramātmā—atma and Paramātmā. Atma is under the laws of nature . . .
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: . . . and Paramātmā is above the laws of nature.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: That is the difference between them. (break) . . . but he can’t take wheat. (laughs)
Bhāgavata: Did Guru Mahārāja spend a long time in Purī? Did he spend much time in Jagannātha Purī?
Prabhupāda: At the last stage.
Devotee (1): We saw one house there that they said was your Guru Mahārāja's house. He stayed right near the Ṭoṭā-gopīnātha temple, just near the Gauḍīya Maṭha.
Prabhupāda: Yes, somewhere near living there. (break)
Bhāgavata: . . . imitation.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the imitation, should be killed.
Bhāgavata: Balarāma, He also killed one who was speaking.
Prabhupāda: Hmm, Romaharṣaṇa.
Prabhupāda: That is kṣatriya's business. Anything imitation should be immediately finished.
Prabhupāda: That is kṣatriya. You have to do that. You are kṣatriyas. Organize Manipur for this purpose. No imitation. This is kṣatriya's business, to see that everything genuinely is presented. That is kṣatriya. Brāhmaṇas should be learned, to advise, instruct Vedic knowledge. Kṣatriyas should give protection and finish all imitation. Vaiśyās, they produce food grains and give protection to the cows. And śūdrās, they will serve. That's all.
Gargamuni: Most . . .
Prabhupāda: Mmm . . .
Gargamuni: . . . most of these demons, though, I don’t think will be convinced by our arguments. I think Manipur . . .
Prabhupāda: Yes, we have to establish.
Gargamuni: Manipur is a place of kṣatriyas. We can organize . . .
Prabhupāda: Mmm, yes.
Gargamuni: . . . some army.
Prabhupāda: They . . . they can do it. Are there civilized men, still?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Huh?
Gargamuni: The Gurkhas are there. Those Gurkhas, they’re supposed to be the best fighters in the world, the Gurkhas. Even the Queen has . . .
Prabhupāda: The Gurkhas, they are near Manipur? No.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Gurkhas are not Manipuri.
Gargamuni: Oh, no?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, they are . . .
Gargamuni: They come from the mountains? There's Indian Gurkhas too.
Prabhupāda: Main, Gurkha means Nepali.
Prabhupāda: This is no Indian. (laughter)
Gargamuni: There's, in. in the Indian army there is. They have Gurkhas.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. They, they take service . . .
Prabhupāda: . . . in Indian army. Therefore Nepal is kept independent.
Prabhupāda: It was British policy, to get the Gurkha soldiers. British Empire was maintained, or expanded, by Gurkha and Sikh soldier.
Prabhupāda: It is not by the British soldiers. They expanded up to Burma, Ceylon, everything. Africa. Whatever empire they possessed. That is the triumph for Subhas Bose's army. He sensed they’re very intelligent. When they saw they did not go away for Gandhi's nonviolent, (laughs) they didn’t care for this. Gandhi, he tried it for thirty years. They didn’t care. They knew that "Let this rascal philosophize. We shall go on." But when they saw that the INA soldiers organized, and Indian, Sikh soldier, Gurkha soldier joining, they thought that this is no more possible. They voluntarily went away.
Bhāgavata: That was always Subhas Chandra Bose' system. It was always his idea.
Prabhupāda: He . . . It is folly, folly, that what is this nonsense violence, uh, nonviolent politician? He is such a bogus philosopher. (laughs)
Bhāgavata: That's why . . .
Bhāgavata: . . . Gandhi had him removed from President of Congress. Subhas Chandra Bose . . .
Bhāgavata: . . .was president.
Prabhupāda: Subhas Bose was always against his philosophy. And he was against his philosophy. (laughs) Therefore he thought that "So long this old man is there, I will not be able to do. Other friends will request me not to disturb him." So he left India, and organized the Singapore design(?) . . . (break) (end).