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770424 - Conversation - Bombay

From Vanisource

His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada



770424ME-BOMBAY - April 24, 1977 - 127:02 Minutes



Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Kartikeya . . . He's your son? No.

Mr. Dwivedi: No, he's my nephew.

Prabhupāda: Nephew. Good boy.

Mr. Dwivedi: And he's his brother-in-law. I came with one request and also a suggestion, if that is appealable to Your Holiness. When I had been there in the night at home I has pondered a little, and I thought I am on very good terms with Mr. Jatti; easily approachable for me. Even in spite of the ministerial crisis on the 22nd, he met me. On the 2lst evening I went to Vṛndāvana. So I saw the, our Mr. President, Akṣaya Mahārāja. He wanted me to stay. I said, "No, I am going away. I'm going with Mr. Jatti for tomorrow." And I think if he is just a little free from government engagements, he would like to preside or inaugurate this function, and I would call it by the inauguration of the Krishna Consciousness Society branch in the state of Madhya Pradesh and at this place. And therefore, as soon as I'll get permission from Your Holiness, I shall try to contact him tonight on telephone.

Prabhupāda: It is . . . I think it is a good proposal. If President comes, it must be successful. A very good chance.

Mr. Dwivedi: So if I have your permission, I'll do this.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. I . . . For mine, that . . . You told that "You gain your weight, increase your weight." That induced me.

Mr. Dwivedi: The very fact that Your Holiness will be going there, that has manifold increased our . . . We are not worried about that.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) Then accept. Then accept.

Mr. Dwivedi: As the saying goes in Rāmāyaṇa, sevaka sādhana svāmī avagamanu, maṅgalun amaṅgala harlun(?).

Prabhupāda: And you are inviting Mr. Jatti. It is good opportunity. Let us . . .

Mr. Dwivedi: Failing that . . . If, somehow or other, he's not free . . . Because time is short, and if Jatti says yes, then I have to go to the Chief Minister, because on previous occasion I told him I wanted him on a particular function. He said, "You do this. Then get this straight. Otherwise the president of our league(?) becomes expensive, so the expenditure will go over the head of the state." He showed me the way. So then immediately after, he said, "Yes." Then I, right from Delhi itself, I made a telephone call to the Chief Minister, and I said, "Such and such appealing, Mr. Jatti is going, and I want to be present in the matter, and I request you also that you should please participate."

Prabhupāda: Now the Chief Minister . . .

Mr. Dwivedi: Is Mr. Sukla there. Because then they'll have to make other arrangements.

Prabhupāda: Sukla?

Mr. Dwivedi: Yes. Camartan(?) Sukla.

Prabhupāda: Oh. He was a Kanpur man?

Mr. Dwivedi: Pardon?

Prabhupāda: He's a Kanpur man?

Mr. Dwivedi: No. Originally they might be coming from Kanpur, but now from Raipur. He's younger brother of this Vidya Charan, who was Broadcasting Minister. And in fact, even I'll . . . If I get . . . One of our workers is already there. I got happily a letter yesterday. So the principal of the college is going to Bhopal, and if I can contact him somewhere if he is unavailable on telephone . . .

Prabhupāda: Bhopal is the capital.

Mr. Dwivedi: Bhopal is the capital.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We had a big function in Bhopal, my party, for about ten days a few years ago.

Mr. Dwivedi: And then I also desire, since Your Holiness is going, that press should be briefed right from Bombay. Why should I wait from Gwalior . . . Because I expect some people a few hundred miles off from Gwalior will also be traveling up to meet Your Holiness. So if they know beforehand in papers from Bombay it will be better. Therefore I have requested my friend Mr. Goswami to give me two or three blocks. If it comes out that way, for our purposes also, he'll need it, and here also I shall try to meet correspondence to one or two papers there, that they should ready to send their representatives over there, that way.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Supposing that Mr. Jatti is not available, do you have some second choice?

Mr. Dwivedi: Then my second choice will be on Mr. Nanda. Mr. Nanda also knows me.

Prabhupāda: Nanda knows me very well. Nanda . . .

Mr. Dwivedi: He also knows me, and he wanted to start a yogāśrama over there but for himself, and he had a mind.

Prabhupāda: I don't think . . . If Jatti does not come, then don't attend from any other.

Mr. Dwivedi: And Jatti will be the best, definitely.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Mr. Dwivedi: Jatti will be the best.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda's idea is that unless . . .

Mr. Dwivedi: So Nanda I'll drop. Only if Mr. Jatti comes, all right.

Prabhupāda: That's all, yes. Otherwise, let us go . . .

Mr. Dwivedi: And for your stay for the night I'm giving a call today to the Birla brothers at Gwalior, and if their guesthouse is free, then I will try to accommodate you there for the night. Of course, all this means little more spending of the petrol, but that is inevitable. We'll have to spend it. There is no go . . .

Prabhupāda: That doesn't matter.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No.

Mr. Dwivedi: There is no go out of it.

Kartikeya: (Hindi)

Mr. Dwivedi: Because if we are going to Mr. Jatti, though there is plane service, but plane reaches spending in two days. Therefore I will not take up the plane. If he says yes, I'll have to take a car, see him, come back, return in about twelve hours' time—five hours to go to Delhi, five hours to come back, and another two hours just to meet him, straightaway only meeting him. Even if he says yes, then also, before I leave my place, I will once again confirm him on telephone that "I am stopping on such and such time, and you give me another two hours' margin if something goes wrong with the car."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: How he will go there?

Mr. Dwivedi: Pardon?

Prabhupāda: Car.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Mr. Jatti will go to Gwalior by car?

Kartikeya: No, they leave from . . .

Mr. Dwivedi: Gwalior . . . Gwalior I may be going by train, but it is just possible that I am asking this young man, my cousin, if he kindly accompanies me, to share part of my work in order to get things done, if he can take his car. I don't have a car. So I am requesting him. If he can spare about a week's time, he'll be a great help because . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, he will do the . . .

Mr. Dwivedi: . . . the installation will of electricity . . .

Prabhupāda: He's young man. He can work.

Mr. Dwivedi: If tomorrow I'm meeting . . . Mr. Mondalia(?) is coming tomorrow, and if I can only meet him, then I'm asking him . . . I think he'll give us a thousand meters of electric wire, another two-three hundred bulbs. So I'll not have to spend anything. Only I have to take it and put things over there.

Prabhupāda: Mondalia knows our movement.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Which Mondalia are you meeting?

Mr. Dwivedi: D. P. Mondalia, I mean.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: D. P . . .

Mr. Dwivedi: D. P. Mondalia.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He's our good member and everything.

Mr. Dwivedi: Very good man.

Prabhupāda: The son or the father?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: All three, the father and S.P. Shanti Prasad(?) . . . He's our member also.

Mr. Dwivedi: S.P. is father.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: D.P. is also our member and S.P. and Ashok, their grandson, is also a member. All three men are . . .

Mr. Dwivedi: So I know D.P. more than S.P. though I know father and son both, and including their wives. They have been participating in our functions.

Prabhupāda: No, they are very nice.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very nice.

Prabhupāda: Very nice.

Mr. Dwivedi: Even here we had a dramatic performance in aid of Rural India in which one of the ministers, Mr. Yajni, provided, and Patel also was there, and Mr. D. P. Mondalia was one of the chief guests over there. And otherwise also, I get lot of help from D.P. So I expect him tomorrow, and if I meet him . . . Normally what happens is he sees me the next day of his coming. But I'll try to press upon him, if I meet him tomorrow, then also most of my . . .

Prabhupāda: (aside:) You want to talk?

Mr. Dwivedi: . . . the difficulty will be solved.

Prabhupāda: You want to talk with me?

Bhakti-caru: Yeah, I was wondering . . . (Bengali)

Prabhupāda: (Bengali)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So, as I told you yesterday, as far as you are able, you make arrangements.

Mr. Dwivedi: Yes, yes, yes, yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Whatever else you cannot afford, that much we will pay. You don't have to worry like that. You make a nice arrangement.

Mr. Dwivedi: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Don't, you know . . .

Mr. Dwivedi: No, I understand.

Prabhupāda: And you, you get seat in Punjab Mail.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, tomorrow morning we're going.

Prabhupāda: Punjab Mail is best. Punjab Mail.

Indian man (1): Most suitable train.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Mr. Dwivedi: Most suitable train is Punjab Mail. You leave here about four o'clock, quarter past four, and you are at Gwalior round about two o'clock.

Prabhupāda: That's nice.

Indian man: About quarter to two.

Kartikeya: Less than twenty-four hours.

Mr. Dwivedi: Less than twenty-four hours. Twenty-two hours.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Are there any other trains?

Mr. Dwivedi: That . . . You have got the night train, leaving nine o'clock. That is taking you Gwalior at eleven o'clock in the night.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, no, no . . .

Mr. Dwivedi: That is inconvenient.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Punjab must be the best.

Mr. Dwivedi: This is only the best train. Punjab Mail is the best train.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I already told someone to book everything. I've given them all information. Tomorrow morning I'm giving them the money for purchasing the tickets.

Kartikeya: Mr. Jatti's coming here in Bombay lst of May or 2nd of May to Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan.

Prabhupāda: Who?

Kartikeya: Danappa Jatti.

Mr. Dwivedi: But I . . . I'll have a . . . try and call with him today, and I'll ask him where he may stay. Of course, I would like to meet him.

Prabhupāda: You can also inform him that we are going to organize the village organization according to Gandhi's program.

Mr. Dwivedi: Yes.

Prabhupāda: That is our proposal.

Mr. Dwivedi: He will help me.

Prabhupāda: With spiritual idea.

Mr. Dwivedi: Mr. Jatti, he will also help me with this program.

Prabhupāda: Gandhi's program plus spiritual. Gandhi's program . . .

Mr. Dwivedi: Yes.

Prabhupāda: . . . plus spiritual. Gandhi had no spiritual program; therefore it was a failure. But here that simple living plus spiritual program, that will affect.

Mr. Dwivedi: Just to briefly . . . (indistinct) . . . I have written this . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I can go over that. That's advertising. I can do this with him outside, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Mr. Dwivedi: I have written this letter for you so that . . .

Prabhupāda: You read it.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "To Shree Tamāla Kṛṣṇa Goswami, Hare Krishna Land, Juhu. Dear friend, I am extremely grateful to His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda Guru Mahārāja for giving me his precious few minutes yesterday and your good self for arranging the interview. I request that His Divine Grace be graciously pleased to fix a date for His Divine Grace's visit to Pohri to inaugurate International Krishna Society branch of Madhya Pradesh at Pohri and to revitalize and modernize the rural uplift activities of the Adarsh Seva Sangha. With profound regards, yours fraternally, H. S. Dwivedi."

Prabhupāda: So?

Mr. Dwivedi: So if I get the letter from you . . . In fact, I drafted this letter for you also. You can make necessary changes in it, so if I get it, even a tentative date, that will be convenient for me. I'll be able to approach the press people over here, and they will just spread out the news.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "As per your request and as per interview you had with His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda on 23/4/77, His Divine Grace with his entourage will . . ." (break) . . . is a Thursday. Fifth: the program was to be from 5th to 8th, meant Friday, Saturday, Sunday and Monday. Now, whether these days will be easier for people to attend? Just like your idea is that some people from Gwalior will come and others. My feeling is that they'll have an easier time to come on a Sunday or on a Saturday evening.

Mr. Dwivedi: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But if we arrive on 7th, which is Sunday night, and the program begins on Monday night, then I think it will be all weekdays—Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday—which is . . .

Prabhupāda: There is . . . In the village there is no such consideration.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But his idea was also to invite some of the respectable gentlemen from the neighboring areas, Śrīla Prabhupāda, and they may . . .

Prabhupāda: That is . . .

Mr. Dwivedi: It could be . . . Then you . . . If the program should really start on Saturday, er, Sunday . . .

Kartikeya: Thursday.

Mr. Dwivedi: Sunday.

Kartikeya: Saturday. Main on Sunday, but starting on Friday, Saturday.

Mr. Dwivedi: No, you may reach there on Saturday, but program should start on Sunday. Seventh is Sunday.

Prabhupāda: We are starting on Friday, hmm?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's . . . No, we were going to start on Wednesday and reach Thursday, and program was to start Friday. Friday evening, Saturday evening, Sunday evening, and Monday evening. Now he's proposing, Mr. Dwivedi's proposing, that we leave here Friday and arrive Saturday evening and that the program begins Sunday evening, Monday evening, Tuesday evening and Wednesday evening. Do you think the extra time is required?

Mr. Dwivedi: Yes, time will be little . . . Even whatever little time that we . . . The time is already very short.

Prabhupāda: No, I have no objection.

Mr. Dwivedi: But nothing could be . . . We must have this, this little time.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: All right.

Mr. Dwivedi: Because if Mr. Jatti comes, then even it will be difficult for the state government to manage so quickly.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The next question is this: When will you know when Mr. Jatti will be coming?

Mr. Dwivedi: Myself?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: When will you get it confirmed?

Mr. Dwivedi: I think . . . Today, 29th . . . 24th, 25th, 26th, 27th . . . On 30th.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So how can we book our tickets? Supposing Mr. Jatti says that "I'll come on the 12th . . ." We don't know. He's the President of India. Supposing his calendar is only available that he can come by the 12th?

Prabhupāda: No, you can conveniently book. We shall wait.

Kārttikeya: No, it is easily bookable, this . . . For this purpose you go to the Western Central Manager. I know the man.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So my only point is, should we book any specific date until we confirm it from Mr . . . hear it from Mr . . .?

Prabhupāda: No, you . . . Suppose tentatively we accept that we shall start a program on Sunday. In that way you book. So if Jatti cannot come, then we shall wait. What is that?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: To me it's nothing, but they have to agree at the railway to change the booking.

Prabhupāda: No, no. There is no need of changing booking. We go there.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, oh. We go, and we wait there.

Prabhupāda: Hmm, hmm.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, that's all right. I have no . . . I mean . . . My point is that the longer we have to book, the better. Not that we change ten days . . .

Prabhupāda: No. Booking should be accepted any day is available.

Kartikeya: We'll wait there only.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, that's the best.

Kartikeya: So if that is good, so when we can stay there?

Mr. Dwivedi: You reach there on the 6th. So that 7th morning will be . . . Sixth is Saturday. So Saturday you are at Gwalior, and then Sunday you'll be there. Evening program will start.

Prabhupāda: You book whichever date you get convenient. That's all.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda, may I ask you a question?

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: If you're going to be traveling for a full day, Friday to Saturday . . .

Prabhupāda: Friday-Saturday?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, you're going to be traveling Friday afternoon and evening and Saturday during the day. Then you're going to get into Gwalior. Probably we'll arrive at the house by five or six at night, evening.

Kartikeya: Three o'clock.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. The train arrives three. You won't reach the house till 4:30 or five, by the time we get out of the train and get to the house. I'm trying to make this following point.

Prabhupāda: No, no . . . From the station how far it is, the house?

Mr. Dwivedi: My place for staying?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Mr. Dwivedi: Not more than two miles.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The point I'm trying to make is simply this, that you're going to be traveling for a full day. The next day, you're going to be traveling for three hours. Whether you're going to feel strong enough to do the program the same evening or whether we should arrive . . .? The program may begin Sunday night, but my point is that we should arrive and you should have enough time to rest before you start preaching that same night. 'Cause I think it's going to be exhausting that you travel all day, then again you travel that morning, and then the same evening you have to give a program for two hours. That's exhausting. Why not let us arrive one day earlier, but the program can begin Sunday, as Mr. Dwivedi's suggesting? But let us arrive a day earlier, so you can you have a little rest there.

Prabhupāda: So earlier means when?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That we arrive . . . My proposal is that instead of arriving on 7th, we will arrive on 6th. Prabhupāda will arrive 6th.

Prabhupāda: Then you'll have to . . .

Mr. Dwivedi: Sixth is what . . .?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Sixth is Friday. We will arrive 6th.

Mr. Dwivedi: Sixth is Friday.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But the program may be . . .

Prabhupāda: Then you have to, we have to start on Thursday.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: No, no, no.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No good.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Thursday I cannot.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, right.

Prabhupāda: Thursday end is not good. Then you have to start on Wednesday.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Somehow you should not become exhausted. That's not the purpose of going there, to become worn out. I mean, you know, we have to think practically about how you're feeling also.

Prabhupāda: No, if you start on Friday, we are reaching on Saturday.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Right.

Prabhupāda: Then . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Afternoon, Saturday afternoon.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Saturday afternoon.

Prabhupāda: Then we get rest the whole night.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, we get rest for, say, twelve hours' rest. But then you have to travel again to go to Pohri district, which may be exhausting.

Kartikeya: Seventy-five miles.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I can't say what . . . I mean, we don't know. It's a winding road. It may get you tired for traveling.

Prabhupāda: Winding?

Mr. Dwivedi: Not very winding. There are two roads. There are two roads. There is is one road which is little winding. There is another road, but we have to travel eighteen miles more. Not winding, Agra-Bombay road. So there is a straight Agra-Bombay road also. But we have to take an extra eighteen miles more drive.

Kartikeya: Eighty?

Mr. Dwivedi: Eighteen. One-eight.

Prabhupāda: So that is not . . .

Mr. Dwivedi: So we can take either. And even this is not so very zig-zaggy and we are . . . No, not much. Not much.

Prabhupāda: But anyway, we are going to hold session on Sunday.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Right.

Prabhupāda: Then? What is the problem?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, my point is that you're going to have to travel Sunday morning to get there, and then hold a function Sunday evening, so whether that's going to be tiring? That's all I'm bringing out.

Prabhupāda: The morning, how many hours?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Travel . . .

Mr. Dwivedi: Three hours.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Three hours.

Prabhupāda: And that's all right.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: All right. I've seen it, that three hours' traveling can be very tiring.

Prabhupāda: What do you want to make?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: My proposal is that you should be able to rest before the program begins, sufficient rest.

Kartikeya: You have to go on Wednesday then.

Prabhupāda: Then you arrange for Wednesday.

Mr. Dwivedi: Supposing, say, about what time in the morning we start? If we start about five o'clock, by about eight o'clock you'll get Pohri. And Mahārāja will be having about ten hours' rest.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, it sounds all right.

Mr. Dwivedi: About ten hours' rest.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It sounds all right.

Mr. Dwivedi: About ten hours' rest.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: To you or me, at least.

Mr. Dwivedi: And the function could be minimized according to our convenience. That also.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: All right, so let's keep it at that. I mean, I'm not trying to go against everybody. I'm only trying to think for your well-being.

Indian man (1): No, one day better go earlier.

Prabhupāda: No, no, my attendance there . . . Actually, kīrtana and other things will be done by you.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: So I'll sit down. That is all.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay.

Prabhupāda: So the most important thing is, if the President is coming, it will be very good starting.

Mr. Dwivedi: I can say I'm not conversant with your physical condition. That's my misfortune. Personally, though, I am very young before you, though I am running sixty-eight. I don't find any difficulty. I go anyway, standing, sitting, and I . . .

Prabhupāda: No, you are quite healthy.

Mr. Dwivedi: I'm quite healthy, by God's grace. Quite healthy by God's grace. And I enjoy better sleep in the train than at home. I'll sleep in the train at will. And usually I make good the deficiency of my sleep in the train.

Prabhupāda: No, sleeping in the train, there is no difficulty.

Kartikeya: No, some people do not get. Because of the movement, some people don't get sleep sometimes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You've slept pretty well whenever we take train.

Kartikeya: (aside:) Does he like air-conditioned coach?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (aside:) No, he likes the open. He likes open air.

Prabhupāda: So do that.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay.

Prabhupāda: And if I actually feel little healthy, I shall stay there for some time to improve my health.

Mr. Dwivedi: Climate is healthy. That's one thing I could say, Your Holiness.

Prabhupāda: That is healthy.

Mr. Dwivedi: Climate is healthy. Water is healthy.

Prabhupāda: Then let us go there.

Kartikeya: What is the height of the place, from the sea level?

Mr. Dwivedi: Sea level, we are 1700 feet.

Prabhupāda: That's all . . .

Mr. Dwivedi: And then all round about is forest.

Kartikeya: Forest is there.

Mr. Dwivedi: Oh, yes.

Kartikeya: That's good thing.

Mr. Dwivedi: Hardly we can't walk even for, say, half a mile, then forest comes up.

Kartikeya: That is very good thing, not only the height.

Prabhupāda: Forest breeze is very healthy. So let us arrange.

Mr. Dwivedi: This is literally correct. If from the boundary of our school I take a gofen(?) and throw a stone, it will go to the forest next side.

Prabhupāda: So make arrangement.

Mr. Dwivedi: And very near about there are beautiful places. Mahārāja will be able to enjoy them only from below, but we have a Kedara Shakti, a beautiful cave temple.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Mr. Dwivedi: And round about the whole year from the mountain water flows back, water drizzles over a banyan tree and then inside into the mountain . . .

Prabhupāda: There is waterfall?

Mr. Dwivedi: Waterfall. The waterfall is different. This water drizzles from the mountain. Waterfall is five miles away, so I do not count it. They say 150 feet or so, waterfall. But this is . . .

Prabhupāda: How far it is, waterfall?

Mr. Dwivedi: Waterfall is about four or five miles away from our buildings.

Prabhupāda: Oh, that's nothing.

Mr. Dwivedi: But this is . . .

Prabhupāda: Very good atmosphere.

Mr. Dwivedi: This is just a mile or even less than a mile from our colony itself. River there . . . First of all there is river. Your Holiness may not be . . . Your Holiness will be able to see it from the riverside. But other people, my friend Gosvāmī, will be able to go up over the mountain. It's not a very . . .

Prabhupāda: And river, river, how far it is, river?

Mr. Dwivedi: Pardon? River, there are two rivers. One river which is a small nalla(?), but it flows throughout the year, where we have a scheme for starting dairy. So that is actually shaving our school boundary. Then there is another river, where I am talking of the Kedāreśvara temple. This is about a mile or about three-fourth of a mile . . .

Prabhupāda: Good river.

Mr. Dwivedi: . . . distant from our colony. And a fairly big . . . small . . .

Prabhupāda: Cāṇakya Paṇḍita says, or somebody, some authority says, that "In a place whether, where there is no friend, no temple and no river, don't go there."

Mr. Dwivedi: Ah, yes, yes, Mahārāja. That is in Śukravetti. That is in Śukravetti. (Hindi)

Prabhupāda: (Hindi) "Nadī, friend and temple."

Mr. Dwivedi: (Hindi) . . . that is also shaving our colony, beautiful temple inside the waters.

Prabhupāda: Our Indian touring means . . .

Kartikeya: River and temple.

Prabhupāda: River and temple. That's all. All our holy places are on the bank of the Ganges, Yamunā, temple.

Kartikeya: Except Bombay. Bombay has no river.

Prabhupāda: Bombay is big river, this . . . (laughter)

Mr. Dwivedi: Has got father of rivers.

Prabhupāda: And the temple is there, Umā devī.

Kartikeya: Father of river is Himalaya.

Mr. Dwivedi: Give any name you like. As friend you may call.

Kartikeya: Father it is not, sāgara.

Mr. Dwivedi: So there is this Kedara Shak . . . Tenkara(?) temple. So many sādhus come there just for taking various kinds of herbs and . . . (indistinct) . . . and they go away. They stay for the night. Ten, fifteen days' halt they make. And there is this beautiful cave-cut temple where throughout the year there is the śiva-liṅga, and on it throughout the year water flows.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Mr. Dwivedi: And inside the temple itself there is little pond, so deep, and we may take any quantity out of it. The water is only that much quantity is there.

Prabhupāda: Good place.

Mr. Dwivedi: So this is a mile's, hardly, less than a mile's distance from our colony. And the river it is perennial river. We have to just cross it, and it gives good passage, particularly during this season. All seasons practically we go and go over the mountain and the temple. Then, on the roadside itself near our colony, there is a water temple. We call it Jagamandir(?). That is also a beautiful temple. It's like the Amritsar type. And one story of that temple is always in the water. Even in the summer, when Your Holiness will go there, Your Holiness will find. And that is Kṛṣṇa's temple.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Mr. Dwivedi: And some of the photographs which were shown to me yesterday, I find the ditto in that temple, Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa's temple.

Prabhupāda: Good place.

Mr. Dwivedi: This is the . . . I think I got a view of that temple.

Prabhupāda: Good inducement. So Kartikeya, you are coming?

Kartikeya: If you're not going to Kashmir, I'll come with you.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Kartikeya: If you are not going to Kashmir for the month of May . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no.

Kartikeya: . . . then I will come.

Mr. Dwivedi: This is the view of that temple, Mahārāja.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Mr. Dwivedi: This Jagamandir. This is the river temple.

Prabhupāda: Very good temple. Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa?

Mr. Dwivedi: Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa temple. This is near our colony.

Kartikeya: We have a booklet on Pohri. (Hindi) So there is the water all around.

Mr. Dwivedi: All around. And one story is in the water itself. That is not shown in Amritsar all around. But here one story is throughout in the water.

Kartikeya: Is it an old temple or a new temple?

Mr. Dwivedi: Old temple.

Kartikeya: Place is old, but the temple is new.

Mr. Dwivedi: No, not new. Temple is also about two hundred years old. And it has a beautiful story behind it. This was the (Hindi), this Pohri. So the cashier, he spent the whole treasury in building up this temple. And when the news went to the yajñir-datta(?) . . . Then they did not meet very so frequently as they started meeting now in our life. Every six months they try to come over there. So he took a diamond, and the cashier, then he died. Yajñir-datta was very sorry. He gave . . . he granted a yajñir(?) for that family of the temple, about six thousand rupees every . . . a yearly yajñir for this much amount, some land and yajñir and all that. So this is a public temple that way.

Prabhupāda: There is another story like that, Rāma Mandir. In South India. What is that state?

Mr. Dwivedi: And at Gwalior also we have got a beautiful temple of Lord Kṛṣṇa. We call it Sanātana Dharma Mandir.

Prabhupāda: So we shall see that temple.

Mr. Dwivedi: But that is with the only Kṛṣṇa with cakra-sudarśana in His hands.

Prabhupāda: Vāsudeva Kṛṣṇa.

Mr. Dwivedi: Ha, Vāsudeva.

Prabhupāda: That Rāma Mandir, there is story that the treasurer, he spent money. (laughs)

Kartikeya: Spent money.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And the nawab was informed that "He is spending money from your treasury." Then he: "How is that, you are spending without permission?" So he did not reply. "Yes, I have done." "Then you pay." So he was arrested, that "You misspent, misappropriated this money." Then at night two young men, that "You take the money from us and release him." So he said, "If I get money, I will release them." So when he woke up from dream, he saw the money and took up. But the boys were not there. Then he understood that he's a rāma-bhakta, rāma-darśana. So he immediately called him that "You are released, and you also take this money, and do your service to Rāmacandra, as you like." Amenaka. Amenaka(?) (Hindi).

Kartikeya: Amadara?

Prabhupāda: Formerly India was very advanced in devotion.

Mr. Dwivedi: And just near there is moving door, shutting door. It has got nine pillars. If you just push one pillar, the entire structure shifts. And the pity is the archaeological department of government of India has taken no care about it. We had some good statue of Buddha and Mahāvīra and . . . Two, three were stolen away. We collected at our own institution. Then ultimately I wrote to government. I said, "Already some statue have been stolen away. You kindly left it wherever you like. We can't protect them from thieves." Just three months back. Then they took away another three statue—one of Viṣṇu, and I think one of Buddha, another of Mahāvīra.

Prabhupāda: Stone?

Mr. Dwivedi: One big, one were stolen. Three . . . I asked government. I asked them three times. Government has not yet taken them away from there. Otherwise we had collected it at our own headquarters and institution.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Deity of Kṛṣṇa?

Mr. Dwivedi: Pardon?

Prabhupāda: No, Buddha.

Mr. Dwivedi: Buddha. And Viṣṇu.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Viṣṇu?

Mr. Dwivedi: You'll find in India, most of the statues, ancient ones, are of Viṣṇu because, perhaps, Viṣṇu is a more ancient Vedic God than Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is the origin . . .

Mr. Dwivedi: I do not know much about it, but that's what I think. And therefore you find more statues of Viṣṇu than Kṛṣṇa. But nobody might be stealing statues of Kṛṣṇa, and He might be still there with His cakra-sudarśana.

Prabhupāda: Tad viṣṇoḥ paramaṁ padam. Ṛg Veda. Viṣṇu . . . Oṁ tad viṣṇoḥ paramaṁ padaṁ sadā paśyanti sūrayaḥ. Viṣṇu is the Vedic Supreme Personality of Godhead.

Mr. Dwivedi: Round about Gwalior, there is a good sage, almost, Mahārāja, of your age. And he's a tāntrika-śāstrī and jyotiṣa. He's the founder of Pitambar Pith. That is a Sanskrit school, but otherwise practicing . . .

Prabhupāda: Jatiya is near Gwalior?

Mr. Dwivedi: Not near; forty miles away from Gwalior.

Prabhupāda: One lady lives in Vṛndāvana . . .

Mr. Dwivedi: He has written books also on tantra-śāstra. And I understand most of these ministers, they were going to seek his blessings. I did not know to whom he gave his blessings, but what I know is that most of these people were going to him. I only . . . One day I asked him. He's very kind towards me, so I go to him and I dine with him. So I told him one day, I said, "Mahārāja, you speak to mahatlal(?) people to give some money to our institution." He said, "Mr. Dwivedi, I do not ask any friends or anybody to do anything for me or to anybody." So then I said, "Mahārāja, then I put one question to you if you permit me." He said, "All right, I permit you." So I asked, "Vivekananda has said that 'Service of God . . . Service of humanity is service of God.' Do you think it is correct or it is incorrect?" He said, "This is correct." Then I said, "We are running educational institutions. Whatever good or bad, leave that aside. But I think in our own little small way we are rendering little service to humanity. And . . ."

Prabhupāda: But I may interfere. The . . . In the Bhagavad-gītā is there such statement that "Service to humanity is service to God"? Is there any statement?

Mr. Dwivedi: Daridrāṇāṁ bhara kaunteya . . . (?) I think there is somewhere . . .

Prabhupāda: There is no.

Mr. Dwivedi: But this particular I remember, daridrāṇāṁ bhara kaunteya . . .

Prabhupāda: This is . . . This is wrong theory. Don't maintain this. This is a very wrong theory. Just like "Service to the leaves is service to the root." Is it not wrong? What do you think? A tree, so where the service should be given—to the root or to the leaf?

Mr. Dwivedi: The root.

Prabhupāda: Then why do you say like that? And Kṛṣṇa says openly, mam ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). He doesn't even recommend to worship demigods. Kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ yajanty anya-devatāḥ (BG 7.20). So these are imagination, concoction. They are not authorized. Vivekananda advocated daridra-nārāyaṇa-sevā hundred years ago. So India is full of daridras. What Mothilal can do? What Vivekananda can do? This is all simply concoction. You cannot do anything.

prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni
guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ
ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā
kartāham iti manyate
(BG 3.27)

The nature's law will go on. You cannot make a poor man a rich man, unhappy man a happy man. That is not possible. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad-janma-yoniṣu (BG 13.22). Can you make a hog eat halavā instead of stool? Can you make? By nature's way it is going on. Ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā kartāham iti manyate (BG 3.27). These are foolish person who concoct ideas. It is not possible. If you can do anything to the human society, induce him to become a Kṛṣṇa devotee.

ya idaṁ paramaṁ guhyaṁ
mad-bhakteṣv abhidhāsyati
(BG 18.68)
na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu
kaścin me priya-kṛttamaḥ
(BG 18.69)

Kṛṣṇa says. So Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇam . . . (BG 18.66). Teach people that "You take it." That is real benefit. Otherwise you cannot do anything. What you can do?

Indian man: The persons are the root.

Prabhupāda: Yes! Root should be given water.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He says, "Persons are the root."

Kartikeya: Person is the root.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He says, "Persons are the root."

Prabhupāda: No, Kṛṣṇa is the root.

Kartikeya: Kṛṣṇa is the root.

Prabhupāda: Janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). This is the Vedānta. Aham ādir hi devānām (BG 10.2), Kṛṣṇa says. So devānām, Brahmā, Viṣṇu, Maheśvara. He is the origin of Brahmā, Viṣṇu, Maheśvara. The root is Kṛṣṇa. Kāraṇam . . . Sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam (BS 5.1).

īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ
sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ
anādir ādir govindaḥ
sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam
(BS 5.1)

Root is Kṛṣṇa.

Indian man: The origin.

Prabhupāda: Origin, yes. Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mat . . . (BG 10.8). That is the difficulty. You do not read Bhagavad-gītā. You quote Vivekananda; you quote another, another. But Kṛṣṇa is God. That is the cause of misfortune of India. You don't accept Kṛṣṇa as the authority. Everyone accepts, all the great sages formerly—Asita, Devala, Vyāsa. Svayaṁ caiva bravīṣi me. And at the present era, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Nimbārka, Caitanya—all accept, kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān (SB 1.3.28). You don't follow the ācāryas, the authorities, Kṛṣṇa. You bring something else.

Kartikeya: Concoction.

Prabhupāda: That is the misfortune. They have left the authority, real authority. They have accepted some foolish man as authority. And that is the misfortune. Therefore we are presenting Bhagavad-gītā as it is, the supreme authority. Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya (BG 7.7). Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate (BG 10.8). Why don't you take this? Distortion of our śāstra, distortion of authority, and bringing something foolish, and you are following. Not . . . You cannot follow. That is not possible. It is not possible. But you are making some authorities. You're trying to follow. Even if you follow . . . That, the same example, just like Vivekananda was advocating daridra-nārāyaṇa. First of all this is a concocted word. How Nārāyaṇa can be daridra? People have accepted. Nārāyaṇa is daridra?

Mr. Dwivedi: No.

Prabhupāda: Then how he manufactured this nonsense word? It is insulting. If I say, "Foolish Jatti, President. Rascal," so is it not insult? Similarly, if you say daridra-nārāyaṇa, it is insult to Nārāyaṇa. But people are accepting daridra-nārāyaṇa. Just see how they are misled.

Indian man: They have not even proper knowledge, sir.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Indian man: They have not even proper knowledge.

Prabhupāda: No knowledge. All rascals.

Kartikeya: Not even proper. No knowledge.

Prabhupāda: That is the difficulty. Rascals have become leaders.

Kartikeya: And we follow them.

Indian man: And we have to, actually. It is . . .

Kartikeya: Not we have to. Here is a leader. Why don't you follow him?

Indian man: But when we get the . . . Fortunately then we can do so.

Kartikeya: No, fortune is given.

Indian man: Yes.

Kartikeya: He has been doing it for so long.

Indian man: Yes, yes.

Prabhupāda: That is the misfortune of human society. The other thing . . .

Mr. Dwivedi: This also happens by good luck. As Rāmāyaṇa says, vinā hari-kṛpā na mile sat-saṅga. (Hindi)

Kartikeya: No, that's not . . . You should not worry about a poor people then. You should worry about Kṛṣṇa only. You should serve Him. You should become His devotee.

Prabhupāda: There are . . . Poor people, so far concerned, that . . . Are we not taking care of the poor people? That is automatically taken. Who is poor? A man who is poor in knowledge, he is poor.

Mr. Dwivedi: That is correct. Yes.

Prabhupāda: Otherwise nobody's poor.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Americans are very rich from . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . material point of view.

Prabhupāda: Poor means poor in knowledge. Otherwise even a small ants, it is not poor. It is eating. You are not giving food. In this room you'll find some hole. Hundreds and thousands of ants will come out. Are you giving him food? And you go to the jungle: thousands of elephants are there. Are you giving them food? Why you are concerned about the poor? Who is poor? Poor means who has no knowledge. He is rascal. He is poor. Poor means poor in knowledge. Otherwise nobody is poor. Everyone is getting his food according to his karma. Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa jantur deha upapattaye (SB 3.31.1). These are wrong theories. Wrong means because they are rascals, they are putting something rascal, idea. Mūḍhaḥ nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam, avyayam. Nityo nityānāṁ ceta . . . This is Vedic version. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). (Hindi) We want to stop all this nonsense. That is our mission. Our Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission is that "You become guru," as I was telling, "and teach, deliver persons where you are." If you say, "How can I become guru?" there is no difficulty. Simply repeat the words of Bhagavad-gītā, Kṛṣṇa. That's all. You become guru. So our mission is to create real guru, not these jugglers. And real guru is he who speaks on behalf of Kṛṣṇa. And that is wanted. It is very simple. Do you accept or not? Boliye.

Mr. Dwivedi: (Hindi) (laughter)

Prabhupāda: (Hindi) . . . manufacturing word, nārāyaṇa daridra. Lakṣmī-pati is daridra? Kitna gādhā. (Hindi) . . .without checking. (Hindi) (Hindi conversation) We want to reestablish this. This is our mission. Everything is there. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa-upade . . .: "You simply make your life successful by understanding Bhagavad-gītā and preach this. You become guru." So where is the difficulty? Why don't you do that? Boliye. (Hindi) You quoted from Vivekananda, not from the Bhagavad-gītā.

Mr. Dwivedi: (Hindi)

yat karoṣi yad aśnāsi
yaj juhoṣi dadāsi yat
yat tapasyasi kaunteya
tat kuruṣva mad-arpaṇam
(BG 9.27)

Prabhupāda: This should be the . . . Take . . . Take Bhagavad-gītā as the authority. Everything will be all right. (Hindi)

Mr. Dwivedi: (Hindi) . . . founder. The first day I couldn't understand it then . . . (Hindi) He doesn't say anything, either (Hindi).

Prabhupāda: (Hindi conversation) "Everyone is īśvara." (Hindi)

Kartikeya: He is jagad-guru.

Prabhupāda: He is . . . Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ (BS 5.1), anādir ādir . . . Anādi. (Hindi) You have got so exalted knowledge in India. You have kept it packed. And you are going to beg from others? Take this knowledge of Bhagavad-gītā and assimilate it, make your life successful, and distribute it throughout the whole world. That I want. (Hindi) Knowledge, real knowledge, is in India. (Hindi) Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu said,

bhārata-bhūmite manuṣya-janma haila yāra
janma sārthaka kari' kara para-upakāra
(CC Adi 9.41)

Indians, they are fortunate. They have got their birth in Bhāratavarṣa. The knowledge is here. So assimilate this knowledge. Make your life successful and distribute it to persons outside India. That is paropakāra. That is real paropakāra. That is real sevā. But sevā, no; it is dayā. The sevā cannot be used. Sevā means offered to the superior. And to the inferior, if you want to do something, that is dayā. There are words. Sevā is only capable to accept, Kṛṣṇa. Sevonmukhe hi jihvādau svayam eva sphuraty adaḥ (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.2.234). These are . . . (Hindi)

Mr. Dwivedi: (Hindi)

Prabhupāda: Sevā, Bhagavān accept, can accept.

ekale īśvara kṛṣṇa āra saba bhṛtya
yāre yaiche nācāya se taiche kare nṛtya
(CC Adi 5.142)

So master can accept sevā. So whenever there is devotional service, it is called bhāgavata-sevā. And jīvera dayā. (Hindi) If you have got something, then you can be merciful to others. If you have no knowledge, what you can do? The basic principle . . . (Hindi) In India, Bhāratavarṣa, exalted knowledge, and if it is presented properly, people will accept. They are accepting now, one man's effort. If many men are prepared to do this service, the whole world will be followers of Bhagavad-gītā. (Hindi) (break) . . . come to give here India's knowledge. In big meeting I told him that "I have not come here to beg. I have come here to give." Everyone goes from . . . Even the Prime Minister goes—beg. All beggars. And it is known as "beggars' nation." But you can be the, I mean, giver nation. You have got so much potency. But we are not training people in that way. They are learning dog dancing. That's all. If we simply understand this one word, beginning of the Bhagavad-gītā . . . There are so many students of Bhagavad-gītā, but nobody understands Bhagavad-gītā. The beginning is,

dehino 'smin yathā dehe
kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā
tathā dehāntara-prāptir
dhīras tatra na muhyati
(BG 2.13)

Is not there in the beginning?

Mr. Dwivedi: (Hindi)

Prabhupāda: So if there is dehāntara-prāpti, then where is your so-called nationalism, socialism? They do not understand. Suppose if you are Indian today, and dehāntara-prāpti, you become something else. Then where is your nationalism? Boliye. For twenty years or, say, fifty years nationalism . . . When you become young man, thirty-forty years, then you begin. Suppose you live for hundred years. So fifty years' nationalism. Then, if by chance you become a dog? (Hindi)

Mr. Dwivedi: (Hindi) . . . vāsudhaiva-kuṭumbakam . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Vāsudhaiva-kuṭumbakam, all right, because Kṛṣṇa says,

sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya
mūrtayaḥ sambhavanti yāḥ
tāsāṁ mahad-yonir brahma
ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā
(BG 14.4)

If you understand Kṛṣṇa, then kuṭumbakam. If you don't understand your father, where is kuṭumbaka? (Hindi) Kitna (Hindi) . . .foolish idea. You do not recognize the father, and crying for brother. If you understand Kṛṣṇa, then vāsudhaiva-kuṭumbakam. If you do not understand, it is foolishness. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati (BG 18.54). If you can understand your position as part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, Paraṁ Brahma . . . Kṛṣṇa . . . Paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān (BG 10.12). Everything in the Bhagavad-gītā . . . If you understand that "I am part and parcel of Paraṁ Brahma. Ahaṁ brahmāsmi. I am also Brahman," that is brahma-bhūta (SB 4.30.20). Prasannātmā na śocati . . . samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. Then you can claim this vāsudeva . . . If you do not understand Kṛṣṇa, it is all nonsense, simply slogan. Where is kuṭumbaka? Then where is nationalism? I have gone to preach in the foreign countries—really on kuṭumbakam, not that "I am Indian. He is American. He is Englishman." Then there is no question of kuṭumbakam. And people are fighting on this plane. This vāsudhaiva-kuṭumbakam . . . Then why you asked the Englishmen to go away, quit India? What do you say?

Mr. Dwivedi: Narrow nationalism.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Mr. Dwivedi: Narrow nationalism.

Prabhupāda: If you . . . If you think kuṭumbakam . . . Suppose some kuṭumba has come to your house. You ask him, "Go out"? This is our system. Gṛhe śatrum api prāptam. This is Indian culture. When you receive somebody at your home, even if he's your enemy—gṛhe śatrum api prāptam—you should treat with him in such a way that he'll forget that he's your enemy. Viśvastam akutobhayam. That was India's culture. Bhīma went to Jarāsandha to fight. Whole day it was fight. It was kṣatriya's fight. Unless one is dead, the fight will continue. So Bhīma and Jarāsandha were equally powerful, so no decision. But still, he was guest at Jarāsandha's house. At night they were eating together, talking together. This is India's culture. They forgot. Arjuna went to see in the battlefield to Duryodhana. And Duryodhana immediately said, "Come here, my brother. You have come. What do you want? How can I help you? You want your kingdom without fight? I can give you." He said, "No, no, that is not my business." This is kṣatriya. He . . . He thought that "He has come to beg." "No, no, that already . . . That we shall decide in the battlefield." This is kṣatriya. But when he's at my place, I offer, "All right, if you want without fight, you can take." This is . . . They . . . This is India's culture. Ei sab mahābhārata hai, "History of Greater India." Apkara Gandhiji (Hindi) fiction hai.

Mr. Dwivedi: Gandhi thought that the Mahābhārata is within.

Prabhupāda: (Hindi)

Mr. Dwivedi: "The Rāmāyaṇa is within." That's what he says.

Prabhupāda: And therefore . . . Therefore . . .

Mr. Dwivedi: He said, "Rāma, nobody accepts . . ."

Prabhupāda: . . . Kṛṣṇa . . . Kṛṣṇa gave him within—bullet. Yes. "Your nonviolence is within. You take it within. Take this bullet." Such wrong theory. "You want to establish nonviolence, and the violence is within. Take it." So don't theorize. Yaḥ śāstra-vidhim utsṛjya vartate kāma-kārataḥ, na siddhiṁ sa avāpnoti (BG 16.23). This is Gītā's word. If you do not follow the śāstra—you manufacture ideas—you'll never get success, na siddhiṁ sa avāpnoti na sukham, no happiness, and what to speak of parāṁ gatim? (Hindi) Tasmāt śāstra-vidhānoktaṁ kāryākārya . . . What is that verse? Real guidance, śāstra, and Kṛṣṇa is speaking. Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. It is very easy. But we have given up all these things. (Hindi) So you have to give up this. Otherwise there is no hope. (break) And to become Kṛṣṇa conscious, it is not at all difficult. Very simple thing. Otherwise how they have become? Ten years before, they did not know who is Kṛṣṇa. So how they have become Kṛṣṇa conscious? And our position is that even a person like Gandhi, he could not become Kṛṣṇa conscious in hundred years. Because the wrong way. And they have become within ten years fully Kṛṣṇa conscious. Now ask him that "Go back to your Christian." Will they go? They have been kidnapped. They have been forced. In so many ways they have been harassed. No. In America it was going on. Their fathers . . . From parents' side they have been kidnapped, detoured by force that "You eat it, the māṁsa. You eat." What is that girl who was kidnapped and she came to temple and married?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That girl in Los Angeles?

Prabhupāda: No, in New York.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, Mūrti-vandya. Mūrti-vandya.

Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Now, how they have become Kṛṣṇa conscious? And our men? They are dragged, somebody, to this conscious, that conscious, that conscious. Take this steady instruction of Bhagavad-gītā. Try to implement. Everyone will be happy, everyone, undoubtedly. Take this seriously. It is not that because we are pushing Kṛṣṇa . . . We are not pushing something new, manufactured. It is already there. It is already there. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So what do you think? Is it possible to push Kṛṣṇa consciousness on this line, strictly on Bhagavad-gītā? What do you think? It is not difficult, but we have made it difficult. Recently I had been to Vinoba Bhave's aśrama. And there is no Kṛṣṇa, and he is writing Bhagavad-gītā pravacana or something like that. Even in Gandhi's āśrama, Wardha, the Gandhi's lantern is being worshiped. And where is Kṛṣṇa? So the Bhagavad-gītā's instruction is mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja, and they are worshiping Gandhi's lantern. You had been with me?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, but I've seen it.

Prabhupāda: You know, that so . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Neither many people come there.

Kartikeya: Sevagram.

Prabhupāda: Nobody.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Kṛṣṇa temples are still full.

Prabhupāda: And it is very nice place. How it could be developed as a Kṛṣṇa conscious center. But they have given up this idea. From externally . . . Now Vinoba Bhave is preaching Bhagavad-gītā pravacana how many years?

Mr. Dwivedi: Nearly forty-fifty years.

Prabhupāda: Fifty years. So what he has done? And within ten years what I have done?

Mr. Dwivedi: He has also put Gītā with politics.

Prabhupāda: Can I not say like that?

Mr. Dwivedi: You are . . . What you preach is unadulterated Gītā. He mixes it with politics.

Prabhupāda: That is my point.

Mr. Dwivedi: You put one principle,

man-manā bhava mad-bhakto
mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru
mām evaiṣyasi kaunteya . . .
(BG 18.65)

Prabhupāda: So what is beneficial, to preach Bhagavad-gītā as it is or adulterate it? Which is good? That is my point. Why should you talk of Bhagavad-gītā, adulterate? What is the benefit? And Kṛṣṇa says naṣṭaḥ. Hmm? (aside:) Bring Bhagavad-gītā. Kṛṣṇa says, sa kāleneha mahatā yogo naṣṭaḥ parantapa. Evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo . . . (BG 4.2). You know that. Find out.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Fourth Chapter.

Prabhupāda: How to understand Bhagavad-gītā? By the paramparā. Sa kāleneha yogo naṣṭaḥ parantapa. (Hindi) The paramparā-sūtra says that . . . (Hindi)

Mr. Dwivedi: Third Chapter . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Fourth Chapter.

evaṁ paramparā-prāptam
imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ
sa kāleneha mahatā
yogo naṣṭaḥ parantapa
(BG 4.2)

Prabhupāda: (Hindi) So what you will gain from naṣṭa, bhraṣṭa? (Hindi) We shall give pure. Then you see how your country becomes happy. That is real dayā. (Hindi) Śrama eva hi kevalam (SB 1.2.8). (Hindi)

bhaktim udasya te vibhoḥ kliśyanti
hi kevala-bodha-labdhaye
teṣāṁ kleśala eva avaśiṣyate
nānyat yathā sthūlaṁ tuṣāvaghaṭṭainam

Bhagavad-gītā is for bhakti. Bhakto 'si priyo 'si me rahasyaṁ hy etad uttamam (BG 4.3): "I am speaking to you . . ." When Kṛṣṇa spoke to Arjuna Bhagavad-gītā to understand, he was not a vedāntī. He was not even a brāhmaṇa. He was not a sannyāsī. So why he was selected? Bhakto 'si. Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti (BG 18.55). Without becoming kṛṣṇa-bhakta, what one will understand Bhagavad-gītā? A politician cannot understand. His motive is different. He cannot understand. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī . . . Bhakta . . . How to become bhakta? Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti. Kṛṣṇa says, "By bhakti one can understand." He never said, "By jñāna, karma, yoga." No. Yoginām api sarveṣāṁ mad-gata . . . (BG 6.47). Eh? What is that? Antar-ātmanā, śraddhāvān bhajate yo māṁ sa me yuktatamo . . . So if you want to organize on that line, then it will be successful. Otherwise it is waste of time. That is real cooperation, that we must accept Bhagavad-gītā as it is and preach as it is. Then people will be happy. Otherwise waste of time. Śrama eva hi kevalam (SB 1.2.8).

vāsudeve bhagavati
bhakti-yogaḥ prayojitaḥ
janayaty āśu vairāgyaṁ
jñānaṁ ca yad ahaitukam
(SB 1.2.7)

Now, that is wanted. (Hindi) Those who lead the sevā-saṅga, they must learn how to do benefit to the people. They must practically assimilate, apply in their practical life and teach others. Then it will be successful. There is no doubt. And the proof is here. In our foreign countries . . . They are foreigners. They are practicing different religious systems. Now, why they are taking to Kṛṣṇa con . . .? Millions of copies, Bhagavad-gītā As It Is, we are selling. Kṛṣṇa book, how many?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Now about three and a half million copies, thirty-five lakhs copies.

Prabhupāda: In Christmas festival . . . They are performing Christmas festival and purchasing our book, Kṛṣṇa book. Now they have accepted this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is three thousand years old or some thousands of . . .

Kartikeya: Five thousand.

Prabhupāda: No, thousands of years.

Kartikeya: No, thousands of years.

Prabhupāda: So do something the people will be benefited, actual. And the whole instruction is there. Then it will be successful. Otherwise . . . Moghāśā mogha-karmāṇo mogha-jñānā vicetasaḥ (BG 9.12). Find out this verse. Moghāśāḥ. (Hindi)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Moghāśā jñānam.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. (Hindi)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:

moghāśā mogha-karmāṇo
mogha-jñānā vicetasaḥ
rākṣasīm āsurīṁ caiva
prakṛtiṁ mohinīṁ śritāḥ
(BG 9.12)

Prabhupāda: That's it. Rākṣasa. (Hindi) Learn the art how to kill Kṛṣṇa, and read Bhagavad-gītā. (Hindi) Moghāśāḥ, finished. (Hindi) Mogha-karmāṇaḥ. (Hindi) Mogha-jñānāḥ. Vicetasaḥ. Why? Rākṣasa. (Hindi) Whether you are prepared to cooperate with me on this line. Are you ready?

Mr. Dwivedi: We also believe in unadulterated Gītā, (laughs) unadulterated Gītā.

Prabhupāda: This is the line of action. (Hindi) Mām evaiṣyasi asaṁśayaḥ (BG 18.68). Asaṁśaya. (Hindi) Yad gatvā na nivartante tad dhāma paramaṁ mama (BG 15.6).

mām upetya kaunteya
duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam
nāpnuvanti mahātmānaḥ
saṁsiddhiṁ paramāṁ gatāḥ
(BG 8.15)

This is saṁsiddhi. If you want show, that is another thing. If you want saṁsiddhi, then you have to accept Bhagavad-gītā as it is. Samyak siddhi, sampūrṇa siddhi, samyak, saṁsiddhi. Find out this verse.

mām upetya kaunteya
duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam
nāpnuvanti mahātmānaḥ
saṁsiddhiṁ paramāṁ gatāḥ
(BG 8.15)

(Hindi) So we have to give up this showbottle, that "I am a scholar of Bhagavad-gītā. I am so . . ."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:

mām upetya punar janma
duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam
nāpnuvanti mahātmānaḥ
saṁsiddhiṁ paramāṁ gatāḥ
(BG 8.15)

Prabhupāda: Real mahātmā. This is the definition of mahātmā, not that I create mahātmā. Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ, bhajanty ananya-manasaḥ (BG 9.13). (Hindi) This is mahātmā.

bahūnāṁ janmanām ante
jñānavān māṁ prapadyate
vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti
sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ
(BG 7.19)

That is mahātmā. Sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti. The Mahatma Gandhi . . . (Hindi) Sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ. (Hindi) If you read Bhagavad-gītā, you must read properly, act properly. Then you'll get the benefit. If you manufacture your ideas—useless waste of time. (Hindi) Whether they'll tolerate? Boliye.

Mr. Dwivedi: Hmm?

Prabhupāda: Whether they'll be able to digest?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Bitter. Bitter medicine.

Prabhupāda: Bitter pill.

Mr. Dwivedi: I think there is greater room for digestion of unadulterated Gītā than for adulterated.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Mr. Dwivedi: And automatically, I do not know why, but I . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: No, they will not take it.

Mr. Dwivedi: They are . . . Already they are in a mood of . . .

Prabhupāda: No, that . . .

Mr. Dwivedi: . . . without much effort on anybody's part. I do not know why, whether it, the idea has come from, but it is there.

Prabhupāda: No, that is everywhere. That is everywhere. Everywhere, every Indian is Kṛṣṇa conscious. By force we are making them otherwise. That is going on.

Mr. Dwivedi: From whatever . . . atomic forces or whatever forces of saints like you, but they take it . . . There will be that air, that something is automatically coming up.

Prabhupāda: (Hindi) If you agree to cooperate with me, you'll see immediately. Because I want to deliver the real thing, therefore in my feeble health I am prepared to go. If one man can understand, that I want to see. I am traveling all over the world to see that at least one man may understand. They have spoiled the whole situation by misinterpreting, by malinterpreting, and by bringing some rascal and pose as leader. The whole world is spoiled. If you want to preach some rascal philosophy, you do. Why you take Bhagavad-gītā? That is cheating.

Mr. Dwivedi: When we can preach something genuine . . . This life is so small. What . . .? Why . . .? Why should we be after something which is adulterated? Why not preach genuine, if at all we preach?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Mr. Dwivedi: And for what purpose? Life itself is simply too short. For what purpose?

Prabhupāda: (Hindi) "I preach something nonsense, and I take Bhagavad-gītā." Why? Why you take Bhagavad-gītā? You . . . There are so many rascal philosophers. You also preach your own philosophy. Why do you take Bhagavad-gītā? And where is nonviolence in Bhagavad-gītā?

Indian man: This, I think, they will be very active to know, these things.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Where is nonviolence in Bhagavad-gītā, in politics?

Kartikeya: Nowhere.

Prabhupāda: No. Even that incidence I told you, the Duryodhana said, "You have come to, for kingdom? Yes, you can take." So he said, "No, no, no. That we shall decide in the battlefield." This is kṣatriya. "Oh, Duryodhana, you are so gentleman. Let us settle up. No, no, no." "No! That will be settled in the battlefield." This is Bhagavad-gītā. (Hindi) "No, we have come to the battlefield. We must decide by fighting." This is kṣatriya. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Yuddhe cāpy apalāyanam. (Hindi) This is teaching of Bhagavad-gītā. Yuddhe cāpy apalāyanam. Then where this is nonviolence come in the Bhagavad-gītā? Apalāyanam. (Hindi) "Come on. Fight. You have no weapon? Take from me." This is kṣatriya. What is the definition?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Kṣatriya?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:

śauryaṁ tejo dhṛtir dākṣyaṁ
yuddhe cāpy apalāyanam
dānam īśvara-bhāvaś ca
kṣātraṁ karma svabhāva-jam
(BG 18.43)

Prabhupāda: Hmm? Śauryam . . .?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Śauryam—heroism; tejaḥ—power; dhṛtiḥ—determination; dākṣyam—resourcefulness; yuddhe cāpy apalāyanam—that he does not flee in the battlefield; dānam—generosity; īśvara—leadership." Those are the qualities.

Mr. Dwivedi: I don't know whether in Mahābhārata or somewhere, Arjuna said, pratyaiva na denam nāpy apalāyanam(?).

Prabhupāda: (aside:) Get light on that. (Hindi about education) There was how many applications for five hundred posts?

Kartikeya: These fifty application . . . Fifty posts and five thousand applications, twenty-five thousand applications.

Prabhupāda: No, no. There were some thousands applications. In education. (Hindi)

Mr. Dwivedi: (Hindi)

Prabhupāda: Then śūdra-karma. Paricaryātmakaṁ karma śūdra-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). (Hindi) So strictly if you follow Bhagavad-gītā as it is, oh, then there will be heaven, everything. (Hindi) Kitna time waste (Hindi). Jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.42). (Hindi) . . .simple life . . . (Hindi)

Mr. Dwivedi: (Hindi) This I've seen that in our day it has been found first-class antiseptic. (Hindi) Particularly when we have got typhus and that sort of sicknesses in the home, it is with ground gobar that the house is cleaned and . . .

Prabhupāda: (Hindi) This is very dangerous civilization. If you want to save them from this dangerous civilization, you must push on Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Otherwise there is no other way. (Hindi) Dhīras tatra na muhyati (BG 2.13). Dhīra. (Hindi) Yato mata tato patha. (Hindi) Secular state. (Hindi) (break) (Hindi conversation) Prāyaścitta-vimarṣaṇam. (Hindi) Do you think they'll do?

Mr. Dwivedi: No, I don't.

Prabhupāda: (Hindi)

Mr. Dwivedi: (Hindi)

Prabhupāda: (Hindi) But,

kecit kevalayā bhaktyā
vāsudeva-parāyaṇāḥ
aghaṁ kārstnyena dhunvanti
nīhāram iva bhāskaraḥ
(SB 6.1.15)

Nīhāram iva bhāskaraḥ. Nīhāra . . . (Hindi) (Hindi conversation continues for some time) And that is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

māṁ ca yo 'vyabhicāreṇa
bhakti-yogena sevate
sa guṇān samatītyaitān
brahma-bhūyāya kalpate
(BG 14.26)
brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā
na śocati na kāṅkṣati
samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu
mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām
(BG 18.54)

Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi . . . (BG 18.55), tato māṁ tattvato jñātvā viśate tad-anantaram. (Hindi) So if you want, you can come also.

Kartikeya: No, I'll talk to Tamāla Kṛṣṇa. When are you going?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, we're going to go tomorrow to book the tickets. We'll be going . . .

Kartikeya: After 6th.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, on the . . . We'll be leaving on the 6th.

Prabhupāda: Wait next day.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, well, we want to leave, I guess . . .

Prabhupāda: Ah, Friday.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Friday.

Kartikeya: You can take my ticket.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We should get a ticket for you? Okay. Fine.

Kartikeya: It's a good opportunity for me to cure also.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yeah?

Kartikeya: We are going to this Ananda(?) near Ahmedabad for five days near Śrīla Prabhupāda. That was a very good reception there. So we can have the same type of . . . And we can see also with that, they have a good land and everything. (indistinct background discussion between them about booking tickets)

Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Nature hai; you cannot change it. (Hindi) Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi (BG 3.27). You cannot stop it. Yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran loke tyajaty ante kalevaram (BG 8.6). (Hindi)

ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti sattva-sthā
madhye tiṣṭhanti rājasāḥ
jaghanya-guṇa-vṛtti-adho . . .
(BG 14.18)

(Hindi) You cannot check the activities of material nature. That is not possible. (Hindi) They do not know what the . . . how nature's law is working. And we are completely under the nature's law.

daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī
mama māyā duratyayā
mām eva ye prapadyante
māyām etāṁ taranti te
(BG 7.14)

(Hindi) We have got Hindi also. (Hindi) You are all young men. Do you think what I am speaking is right or wrong?

Mr. Dwivedi: Right.

Indian man (2): Right.

Prabhupāda: Right? (laughs) Thank you.

Mr. Dwivedi: When we told him yesterday, so he was interested to come today.

Prabhupāda: Very good.

Mr. Dwivedi: In Gītā he was interested.

Prabhupāda: Very good.

Indian man (2): In Gītā I am more interested.

Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Śva-viḍ-varāha-uṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ (SB 2.3.19). (Hindi) (Hindi conversation continues for some time) Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. (Hindi)

Mr. Dwivedi: But now everybody has become a śūdra.

Prabhupāda: (Hindi) (more Hindi conversation) So give him photograph, my photograph. Bring some photograph.

Mr. Dwivedi: All right. (Hindi) There are tentative date . . . (Hindi) So that can be fixed, that Your Holiness will be reaching there about the 6th.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That letter . . .

Mr. Dwivedi: (Hindi) In that letter, whatever changes you want to make, make changes. Kindly put the date 6th, that His Grace should be reaching Gwalior on the 6th. (break)

Prabhupāda: Do . . . Otherwise call him.

Mr. Dwivedi: Or Pohri otherwise, Pohri on the 7th.

Prabhupāda: Call him.

Mr. Dwivedi: Pohri on the 7th, morning.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. (Hindi) So that letter . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Is it required to give letter like that, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I mean . . .

Prabhupāda: And . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That letter is . . . It's required to give him a letter like that?

Prabhupāda: If he wants, give him a tentative date.

Mr. Dwivedi: You kindly give me one or two photographs.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I don't have any photographs like that.

Mr. Dwivedi: You don't have.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But you can get them. I can tell you the person to see who may have them. Amogha-līlā. I can give you his name.

Prabhupāda: So ask him, Amogha-līlā. Why he shall go?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, I . . . We have no photos.

Prabhupāda: No, no, you have no; Amogha-līlā has got.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: So bring some. Give him.

Mr. Dwivedi: And then you arrange for that date, that His Grace will be reaching Pohri on the 7th.

Prabhupāda: Tentative date.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So when do you want the letter? Immediately? You want the letter immediately?

Mr. Dwivedi: Yes. Yes, you see, because I am leaving tomorrow. Before I go, I meet some press people. I will be able to show them this letter. I say . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Mr. Dwivedi: . . . on that basis, they'll begin to submit that news.

Prabhupāda: (chants japa) If actually government follows Bhagavad-gītā, then they should stop this cow slaughter immediately. Go-rakṣya. If you want to eat meat, there are so many other animals. But don't touch cow. What is this? Ten thousand cows are being killed every day. And you are preaching nonviolence. (chants japa)

Mr. Dwivedi: Then I may take that letter from Your Holi . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Mr. Dwivedi: (Hindi)

Prabhupāda: No, you are welcome always.

Mr. Dwivedi: (Hindi) . . . the hotel, you have got to do it.

Prabhupāda: (Hindi) (chants japa) Jaya. Prāṇair arthair dhiyā vācā. (rings bell) Gopīnātha?

Upendra: Yes, Prabhupāda. (end).