770623 - Conversation - Vrndavana
Prabhupāda: . . . and prostitutes. So . . .
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, it's even mentioned in the Kṛṣṇa book. Prostitutes came out of Dvārakā.
Prabhupāda: Yes. In Calcutta in our childhood I have seen many big, big prostitutes, Vaiṣṇavī.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Really?
Prabhupāda: All, their behavior, their living . . . Simply they were not married. They were kept by some big men. Otherwise everything was so nice. Big, big prostitutes.
Prabhupāda: There was a big temple of prostitutes in Calcutta, Kach-Kamil.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Kach . . .?
Prabhupāda: Kach-Kamil. Kach-Kamil means the gentleman who kept her, he was a big glass merchant. So the temple was decorated with mirrors and glass, and her name was Kamil, so Kach-Kamil temple. Still there are. Everyone was Kṛṣṇa conscious, either poor man, retired man or prostitute or gentleman or rich man—everyone. The society itself was Kṛṣṇa conscious.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There wasn't any influence of that Ramakrishna Mission yet?
Prabhupāda: No. Ramakrishna . . . Who cares for?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They had no . . . I mean, nowadays they are so widespread in their effect.
Prabhupāda: No, no. Oh . . . Because people are degraded. Who cared for Ramakrishna?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In those days it was much purer.
Prabhupāda: Still who cares for Ramakrishna?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But now people are hodgepodge.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is another thing.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I mean to say, in those days people were a little bit more authentic in their . . . you know . . .
Prabhupāda: Degraded, most. There is no principles. Formerly there was a standard principle. Then they fall down.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But what did the British think of that principle?
Prabhupāda: British gave liberty about our culture and religion. They never interfered. That was their credit. They knew it. If they interfered with their internal affairs, then they will be lost. That was Queen. She guided them.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They were expert like that.
Prabhupāda: No, they were very good politician. (pause) I can say, in the British period there was no scarcity, and leniency. I recall the way. Didn't require . . . And when they like . . . With three hundred rupees they were so happy. Now you calculate that three hundred rupees means ten thousand. So where is that ten thousand rupees?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, only the wealthier.
Prabhupāda: For children one-anna tiffin is sufficient. One anna. (looking at monkeys) You see?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, a whole family of them. This is their feeding place, the garbage can here. They don't come when they see people, though. Around all the holy places I always see a lot of monkeys and cows in India. Is there some reason, special, about . . . I mean, cows, there's obvious reason, but what about the monkeys? Why are they around the holy places?
Prabhupāda: Because they are fed by the visitors.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They like them. The visitors like them.
Prabhupāda: Here you'll find many of . . .
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I remember in the Rādhā-Govinda Temple in Jaipur, oh, the monkeys, they lived there as regular citizens practically. And they're very friendly there. They come up and they hold their hand out.
Prabhupāda: That Kṛṣṇa was giving the monkeys. Monkeys were pet, not as enemy.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Kṛṣṇa treated the monkeys as a pet?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Friends.
Prabhupāda: He was giving butter. In the forest playing with them.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Imitating also.
Prabhupāda: Playing. If you give them to eat something, they become friendly.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They're intelligent.
Prabhupāda: Before, it is described, before human birth, monkey—either monkey or lion or cow. Sattva-guṇa, rajo-guṇa, tamo-guṇa. Monkey's tamo-guṇa, cow is sattva-guṇa, and lion is rajo-guṇa. This is the last animal life before human life, gradually. Everything is described. Darwins want to take credit, (laughs) nonsense.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But he could only see as deep as the body. He could not see it was the soul . . .
Prabhupāda: Hmm. He was rascal speculator. He took the idea from the Vedic literature, and he wanted to take the credit himself, and the different hodgepodge theory, this is . . . Britishers took the idea from Vedic literature and presented in British way. Britisher wanted that "We are the monopolizers of all scientists, all big men." Sir Isaac Newton, then the, who is that, Darwin, big politicians, Gladstone, everything big—British. They wanted it. British means all big men. "Therefore we must rule over the world." All Lords, Sirs, and this and that . . . They wanted to prove, "The only big men of the universe, they take birth in England, and therefore we should rule over the world." (laughs) And this was their pledge.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: For a while they did a pretty good job.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: For a while they actually were . . .
Prabhupāda: No, artificially you can do for a while. Unless it is sound footing, it cannot stay. You can cheat some people for some time . . . no, all time. You can cheat some people for all time, and all people for some time, not all people for all time. This is the . . . That was their business: to cheat some people for all time and cheat all people for some time, but not all people for all time. That is not possible.
Prabhupāda: (Bengali) (Bengali conversation) Britishers made a mistake. They made a empire, very good, but they did not rule for the people. They wanted to rule over the world for their own sake, London. Their policy was all big, big brain from England should go outside, earn money and bring in London. Exploit. Therefore it is . . . Otherwise it was a very grand plan. They were very nice. This was suggested by one of their viceroy in India, Lord Curzon, that "India is a vast country, very cultured country. Don't try to exploit them. Better send one royal family member to become king here and rule as one empire. Don't discriminate." The others did not like the idea. "Make England's men king in India. The people in general, they like king. And rule over them and have good relationship." These rascals, they did not like.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Even if they had, though, nowadays they would have been kicked out.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Even had they put in a king, in the modern days the tendency is to kick out the foreigners.
Prabhupāda: No, if they had ruled nicely, according to the Indian principles . . . The Muhammadans did it, and they ruled over eight hundred years. The Britishers could not do it. They could not rule over two hundred years. Within two hundred years finished. And during Muhammadan period there were many, many powerful Sikhs. Staying, they did not like to drive away the Muhammadans. Whole Rajputana was full of big, big kings. They could have thrown away them. Yes.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Right. The Rajput kings.
Prabhupāda: Yes. But they did not do. They cooperated.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That Rajput is Rajasthan?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Akbar appointed this Mansingha, who has made these temples. He was commander-in-chief. Yes.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Of the Muslim army.
Prabhupāda: Yes. The all governmental power was in the hand of Indians. Only the Muslims were there.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So they did what the Curzon suggested.
Prabhupāda: Yes, they know it. And besides that, they did not exploit. Whatever enjoyment they did—within India, not that taking away the money outside India. Therefore it was very good relationship. And Indian people, they do not mind who is king. "We pay our tax. That's all." That is the attitude from the very beginning. The general people, they did not mind whether Kurus or war(?) will reign over or the Pāṇḍavas. "We don't mind. You become fight . . . You become king. We give our tax. That's all." So there was no fight with the subject between king and citizens. This democracy is a demon-crazy. It has no value. It is simply waste of time and effort and no feeling. Demon-crazy. I do not know who introduced this. In India still there is no demon-crazy . . . (indistinct) . . . Everyone is taking part in politics. What is this nonsense? It is meant for the kṣatriyas. They can fight and defend. The rascals, bhaṅgis, cāmāras, and they are also in politics. Harijanas . . . Every one of them vote, and everyone has got the right to become minister. Not this. The real thing they are missing, the mode of life, the aim of life. (break) . . . care. Everyone is theorizing, everyone is educated, and everyone is . . . they're hippie. That's all.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And everyone is what?
Prabhupāda: Hippie. The result is hippie. In the Western countries I see and lament. So many percent of their population are hippies. What is the benefit? They cannot do anything. Useless population. They cannot utilize. And in America the Vietnam was selected—"Let them die," in disappointment. Useless waste of . . . They require . . . Could not manage. "Let them die." Marawara gar leka.(?) When you have finished all sorts of condemnation, we say, "You die." That's all. Finished. They have no idea how to reform this degraded population. This is the only way—Kṛṣṇa consciousness. In New York I have seen in ordinary places how niggardly they live. No human being can live like that. In good places, nicely dressed, nicely . . . But in East . . . East Villages or something?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, in the East Village.
Prabhupāda: No gentleman can live. So niggardly. The shops, the area, the neighborhood, all . . .
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's where you went to begin the movement.
Prabhupāda: No, no, I did not select that. Unknowingly I was thrown. I did not know which quarter is good way.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Who showed you that area?
Prabhupāda: Mukunda. I asked him that "Find out some upper class . . ." He found out that 26 Second Avenue. (laughs) I did not know. That's all. Anyone . . .
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Humble beginning.
Prabhupāda: The landlord took advantage. He was receiving rent, eighty-nine rupees or eighty rupees. He charged me 125. And another room, he was getting fifty. So he charged me seventy-five. Little room.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Dollars.
Prabhupāda: Ah, yes, dollars. Eighty and fifty, 130. He charged me two hundred.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, you were paying too much. 'Cause I was living right there. I was not paying so much. I was paying sixty-five dollars.
Prabhupāda: How many there was . . .?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: For four rooms.
Prabhupāda: Just see.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He took advantage.
Prabhupāda: I took advantage, "Let me stay somewhere." I was loitering in the street, so I thought, "Let me stay somewhere. Then I shall see later on."
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's exactly what you had, two hundred dollars. You had saved that money very carefully?
Prabhupāda: Not carefully. Anyway, I got it. I was never careful for anything. Whatever automatically comes. I was never careful: "As the Jew, I have to save . . ." No, no.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: A long way up to 55th Street. It's quite a change from that humble apartment to . . .
Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . big, big building.
Prabhupāda: On the First Street. The First Street was there. I was in between the First and Second Street.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah.
Prabhupāda: So First Street, Second Street, and we went to 55th. And Second Avenue, Fifth.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Eighth Avenue.
Prabhupāda: Eighth Avenue.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Fifty-fifth Street is midtown, middle of the . . . But actually that was the right place to be, because there were many young people at that time in the East Village who were searching for something.
Prabhupāda: Yes. I think Mukunda selected for that.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Just like in San Francisco, that same kind of place we got. So many young people were there, Haight Street, Haight-Ashbury. Now those two places have become ghettos practically.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, very dangerous. No more young people moving about, no more nice shops. Simply very dangerous.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Many people with drugs, taking . . .
Prabhupāda: Only Negroes. I was going one place to another, underground. Not bad. They used to say "Poor man's transport." Underground?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Subway. But everybody uses it. You'll see even big men use it. Very quick, cheap.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You would ride alone in the subways? You would be alone, riding?
Prabhupāda: (aside:) Who are these men? I was loitering. Yes. "Let me take this train. Let me see where it goes." Like that.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Did you ever go to the Bronx?
Prabhupāda: Hmm. I was sitting alone on the New York house.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Park.
Prabhupāda: Then I heard that one crazy man was killed.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Then you stopped going. Oh, those parks are dangerous. In New York you can't go alone.
Prabhupāda: That was my morning walk. (laughs) I did not know what is morning walk.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Did you ever go to the zoo in Central Park? Central Park you would go to also?
Prabhupāda: Hmm. Alone.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Were you doing any translation work at that time?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes, you said. Then your typewriter was stolen.
Prabhupāda: I purchased one tape recorder, some fifty dollars . . .
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What were you going to do with the tape recorder?
Prabhupāda: I was recording.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Then who would type?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You were recording your translation.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Who would do the typing?
Prabhupāda: I was doing.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You mean afterward you would listen to it and type.
Prabhupāda: (pause) No, typing I was doing in my own mind. Some songs I was recording. Typing not from this. That, I was seeing book, that's all.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So you mean you would translate and then type it immediately?
Prabhupāda: From writing I was typing. (pause) Flies are more cunning.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. (break)
Prabhupāda: . . . material body. So as soon as there is material attraction, the village organization will not stand because the other material attraction is industry. So because he's materially attracted, he'll say that "If I do industry, I get hundred rupees. Why shall I plow for five rupees?" That civilization they do not know. Gandhi's plan failed there. If materially they are after material enjoyment, so if he gets hundred rupees, he thinks that "I will enjoy more. Why shall I be sticking to the service?" Then the village program will fail. They will go for the hundred rupees. That civilization they do not know. After all, they are all rascals. They won't take lesson from us or from the Vedic culture. Therefore it is failure.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That they won't take.
Prabhupāda: No, that is . . . Therefore it will be a failure. We are . . . Just like in Hyderabad we are trying to make an ideal farm. If we can do, that will be success.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But now, just like there was recently an article. Previously there was oil shortage in the world. There is oil shortage . . . (indistinct) . . . Now they are predicting that there is going to be a water shortage.
Prabhupāda: Everything will be shortage. That is nature's arrangement. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). They cannot make any plan successful without Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So long they'll insist upon this point, that "Without Kṛṣṇa consciousness we shall do everything successfully . . ." That is durāśā. As long as they persist on this, they'll remain rascals. Every plan will be failure. Durāśā. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī. Nature, material nature, is against them. No plan will be allowed to be . . . Just trace out the history. Every plan has been unsuccessful, either Eastern, Western. Napoleon made plan, Hitler made plan, Gandhi made plan. So many rascals, they made plan. Everyone's plan, impersonalist, they are unsuccessful at the end. Gandhi was killed, Napoleon was dishonored, Mussolini was killed, Hitler nowhere . . . Take all these big, big . . .
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Still they have not learned their lesson.
Prabhupāda: Therefore they are rascals. Punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30), chewing the chewed. It has been unsuccessful many times. Still they'll do. (pause) When the sewer ditches will be complete? Sewer ditches?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The sewage line? They should be completed in a month. Before the gurukula opens, it has to be finished.
Prabhupāda: (aside) You can eat it immediately.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, sorry.
Prabhupāda: You like it?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah.
Prabhupāda: And you did not take?
Akṣayānanda: I take. (break)
Prabhupāda: . . . I stressed in other that in India strictly maintain an institution, following Bhagavad-gītā's conclusion(?). That we are trying to do. It is not a new invention. It is already there. If it is not possible to maintain such an institution, then human civilization will be finished. There is no hope. And it is now being effective worldwide. Why India should not maintain?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Actually, he was very praiseworthy of your efforts. He said, "I know what Prabhupāda has done." If in some way Mr. Morarji Desai can be brought to you, that will be very . . .
Prabhupāda: No, no, he's a very big lion. He will not agree to come. You don't try for.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No, we're not trying. Just if sometime if we're in Delhi or something, if we . . . It's like he still has a lot of good habits. He's material . . .
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . but he gets up at four o'clock every morning. He only eats fruits and milk.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He only eats fruits and milk, nothing else. Cāpāṭi and all he doesn't eat. And he boasts that "I gave up sex life." Very strictly . . . (indistinct) . . . And he reads the Gītā every day. And, of course, he doesn't practice it, but . . . In some public speeches he has said that we should revive our Indian culture which has been lost.
Prabhupāda: There is little hope.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Of course, these politicians are little worried that if they make something very strict, like if they make it Hindu or something, then they will lose votes from the Christians and the Muslims.
Prabhupāda: That is their difficulty.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: So they will . . .
Prabhupāda: No, that is not possible. But there must be some ideas.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. (pause)
Prabhupāda: (sounds of thunder) Now let us go inside. (end).