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720402 - Conversation - Sydney

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

720402R1-SYDNEY - April 02, 1972 - 87:15 Minutes

Prabhupāda: That's a fact. Today the superior training and intelligence. No so-called gentleman will hear . . . (indistinct) . . . attention continually. Nobody will hear. They come and hear, they go on. But they were hearing very seriously. Was it not?

Śyāmasundara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Questions were intelligent. So all these frustrated boys and girls in the Western world, they are all good candidate. You have to organize to give them, they are searching after.

Śyāmasundara: It seems like that it's the nature of all living entities to be mad after something.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Love. That I explained—love. We have got our love in store. But instead of loving Kṛṣṇa, we have distributed the love in so many ways, and frustrated. Love is there in store. That is reserved for Kṛṣṇa. And we are trying to love Kṛṣṇa, that I explained.

Why I am loving this body, loving this apartment? Ultimately it goes to Kṛṣṇa. But that you do not know. You are actually trying to love Kṛṣṇa. But because nobody is giving him Kṛṣṇa, he's crying.

Śyāmasundara: That was the name of Allen Ginsberg's first book, Howl.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Śyāmasundara: Howl.

Prabhupāda: Howa?

Śyāmasundara: Howl. That means it was a protest, a howling, "You have not given us the right information," to his elders. "Now what do we do? Simply howl." That was the introduction for our generation, and we all listened to that, read that, the howl protest.

Prabhupāda: He is also searching after, therefore he comes. Whenever he finds opportunity, he comes to me. He's searching after Kṛṣṇa.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. He gets so many bogus ideas. (laughs)

Prabhupāda: (chuckles) But still he's attached to us.

Śyāmasundara: He embraces you when you meet.

Prabhupāda: Yes. He likes me. (laughter) Simply his only objection is that I am very conservative. He said: "Swāmī, you are very conservative." Because I forbid so many things. He cannot. Otherwise he would have joined me, but he cannot.

Śyāmasundara: No.

Prabhupāda: He knows that, "Unless I give up all these bad habits, Swāmī will not accept me."

Devotee (1): He is a very enthusiastic chanter.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee (1): Oh, we were in this chapel chanting.

Prabhupāda: He was there?

Devotee (1): Yes, he was there. He came down on stage, jumping up and down, "Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa." Then he took prasādam. He was very enthusiastic.

Prabhupāda: No, he has promised to me that, "Wherever I shall go, I shall chant." That he has promised.

Śyāmasundara: He's going to be . . . he gave me his address in California, so he'll be living there for some time.

Prabhupāda: I asked him that if he was there he can see me again. Our mission is very nice. We want to see everyone happy. We don't want anything from anyone. We don't say that, "You give me fee, then I give you some mantra." No, we don't say like that. Our instruction is free. I want to see that they are doing it and they are happy, that's all. Rādhā-kṛṣṇa bolo, saṅge calo, ei-mātra bhikhā cāi (from Gītāvalī), this Bhaktivinoda's, "You simply chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and come with me. This much I want. I don't want anything else."

Śyāmasundara: So one who is mad after something else material, mad after this or that . . .

Prabhupāda: It is perverted.

Śyāmasundara: And he must transfer his love . . . madness to Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: That madness should be for Kṛṣṇa.

Śyāmasundara: So how is that madness transferred?

Prabhupāda: By this devotional service. You practice it to love Kṛṣṇa. And then when you come to the actual stage, you will be mad after Kṛṣṇa. This is the process to bring to you . . . bring you to the platform.

Śyāmasundara: No other way can replace . . .

Prabhupāda: Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti (BG 18.55): by devotional service. Neither by jñāna, yoga, karma, no, that will not touch. You cannot become mad after Kṛṣṇa by any means except by this devotional service. Therefore, we are so much conservative. Because if we are actually after Kṛṣṇa, then you must accept the real method.

Devotee (1): Though we must be eager for devotional service, we still have to have this patience and determination, then create some . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. Because māyā is strong, sometimes you are deviated. Therefore we have to be determined.

Śyāmasundara: It seems only natural, gradually if you are all the time serving, serving, serving Kṛṣṇa, eventually . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, this is the only way. Sevonmukhe hi jihvādau svayam eva sphuraty adaḥ (Brs. 1.2.234). By your service, Kṛṣṇa will automatically reveal Himself. He wants service, therefore He said: "Surrender unto Me." "Surrender unto Me," not stop all activities. "Surrender unto Me." What He will say, you do. That is surrender. Just like Arjuna surrendered. So surrender means that he had to fight. That is surrender. Not that, "I surrender, I do nothing." That is not surrender. That is only negation. Doing nothing of the material thing, that is negation. Take the positive view. That is doing always for Kṛṣṇa.

Śyāmasundara: Eventually your mind will become so occupied, and every field of activity will become so occupied, that you will forget everything else, eventually.

Prabhupāda: Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ (Brs. 1.1.11). Zero. All everything zero, make it zero. Śūnyam. Jñāna-karmādy-anāvṛtam (CC Madhya 19.167). Jñāna-karma means there is some aspiration of profit. Karmīs, they are trying to be elevated in higher planetary system. And jñānīs, they are wanting to become one with the Supreme. So that is also demand. That means there is some desire. It is not anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam.

But one has to become anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam—any desire, make it zero. Then what to do? I shall become dull and dumb? No. Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānu-śīlanaṁ (CC Madhya 19.167), you have to work according . . . favorably, as Kṛṣṇa desires. That's it. That is wanted, that is bhakti. Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānu, that is right. You have to simply abide by the orders of Kṛṣṇa or His representative, that's all. That is required.

Śyāmasundara: Then you become automatically mad after Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The more you practice, the more you become mad.

Devotee (1): As in that verse, "Thus by the higher self conquer the lower . . . thus with the higher self conquer the lower self and curb the insatiable enemy known as lust."

Prabhupāda: Higher self? I don't follow.

Devotee (1): That verse in the Gītā?

Prabhupāda: No, this is Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu. You will find in Nectar of Devotion. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ jñāna-karmādy-anāvṛtam (Brs. 1.1.11). You have read this Nectar of Devotion?

Devotee (1): Yes.

Prabhupāda: You will find there. Where is Nectar of Devotion? Bring it.

Śyāmasundara: So our business, our main business really is engaging people in serving Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Somehow or other engage. If you cannot engage him, then let him simply eat. Engage him in eating, that's all. We are actually doing in the beginning, "Please come here and take some prasadam and go home." Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ jñāna-karmādy-anāvṛtam.

Śyāmasundara: (aside) Turn the light switch on. (break) Which, the first sentence?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: "The three categories of devotional service which Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī describes in Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu are listed as devotional service in practice, devotional service in ecstasy and devotional service in pure love of Godhead. There are many subheadings in each of these categories."

"But generally it is understood that in the category of devotional service in practice there are two different qualities, devotional service in ecstasy has four qualities, and devotional service in pure love of Godhead has six qualities. These qualities will be explained by Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī later on."

"In this connection, Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī suggests that the person eligible for Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or devotional service, can be classified by his particular taste. He says that devotional service is a continual process from one's previous life. No one can take to devotional service unless he has had some previous connection with it. For example, suppose in this life I practice devotional service to some extent."

"Even though it is not one-hundred-percent perfectly performed, still, whatever I have done will not be lost. In my next life, from the very point where I had stopped in this life, I shall begin again. In this way there is always a continuity. But even if there is no continuity, if only by chance a person takes interest in a pure devotee's instruction, he can be accepted and advance in devotional service."

Prabhupāda: This is the point. Preaching means this. Even one has no previous record of service, still, if he meets a pure devotee, he becomes enthusiastic. Therefore preaching required. Otherwise, one can say that whatever he has done last life, he will begin from that. No. Then?

Śyāmasundara: "Anyway, for persons who have a natural taste for understanding books like the Bhagavad-gītā and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, devotional service is easier than for those who are simply accustomed to mental speculation and argumentative processes."

"To support this statement there are many authoritative assertions by the learned scholars of bygone ages. According to their general opinion, a person may become governed by certain convictions derived by his own arguments and decisions. Then another person, who may be a greater logician, will nullify these conclusions and establish another thesis. In this way the path of argument will never be safe or conclusive. The Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam recommends, therefore, that one follow in the footsteps of the authorities."

"Here is a general description of devotional service given by Śrī Rūpa Gosvāmī in his Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu. Previously, it has been stated that devotional service can be divided into three categories—namely devotional service in practice, devotional service in ecstasy and devotional service in pure love of God. Now Śrī Rūpa Gosvāmī proposes to describe devotional service in practice. Practice means employing our senses in some particular type of work. Therefore devotional service in practice means utilizing our different sensory organs in service to Kṛṣṇa. Some of the senses are meant for acquiring knowledge, and some are meant for executing the conclusions of our thinking, feeling and willing."

"So practice means employing both the mind and the senses in practical devotional service. This practice is not for developing something artificial. For example, a child learns or practices to walk. This walking is not unnatural. The walking capacity is there originally in the child, and simply by a little practice he walks very nicely. Similarly, devotional service to the Supreme Lord is the natural instinct of every living entity. Even uncivilized men like the aborigines offer their respectful obeisances to something wonderful exhibited by nature's law, and they appreciate that behind some wonderful exhibition or action there is something supreme. So this consciousness, though lying dormant in those who are materially contaminated, is found in every living entity. And when it is purified, this is called Kṛṣṇa consciousness."

"There are certain prescribed methods for employing our senses and mind in such a way that our dormant consciousness for loving Kṛṣṇa will be invoked, as much as the child, with a little practice, can begin to walk. One who has no basic walking capacity cannot walk by practice. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa consciousness cannot be aroused simply by practice. Actually there is no such practice. When we wish to develop our innate capacity for devotional service, there are certain processes which, by our accepting and executing them, will cause that dormant capacity to be invoked. Such practice is called sādhana-bhakti."

"Every living entity under the spell of material energy is held to be in an abnormal condition of madness. In the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam it is said, 'Generally, the conditioned soul is mad, because he is always engaged in activities which are the causes of bondage and suffering.' The spirit soul in its original condition is joyful, blissful, eternal and full of knowledge, and only by his implication in material activities has he become miserable, temporary and full of ignorance. This is due to vikarma. Vikarma means actions which should not be done."

"Therefore, we must practice sādhana-bhakti, which means to offer maṅgala-ārati in the morning, to refrain from certain material activities, to offer obeisances to the spiritual master and to follow many other rules and regulations which will be discussed here, one after another. These practices will help one to become cured of madness. As a man's mental disease is cured by the directions of a psychiatrist, so this sādhana-bhakti cures the conditioned soul of his madness under the spell of maya, or material illusion."

"Nārada Muni mentions this sādhana-bhakti in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Seventh Canto, First Chapter, thirtieth verse (SB 7.1.13). He says there to King Yudhiṣṭhira, 'My dear King, one has to fix his mind on Kṛṣṇa by any means.' That is called Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It is the duty of the ācārya, spiritual master, to find the ways and means for his disciple to fix his mind on Kṛṣṇa. That is the beginning of sādhana-bhakti."

"Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu has given us an authorized program for this purpose, centered around the chanting of the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. This chanting has so much power that it immediately attaches one to Kṛṣṇa. That is the beginning of sādhana-bhakti. Somehow or other, one has to fix his mind on Kṛṣṇa. The great saint Ambarīṣa Mahārāja, although a responsible king, fixed his mind on Kṛṣṇa, and similarly anyone who tries to fix his mind in this way will very rapidly make progress in successfully reviving his original Kṛṣṇa consciousness."

"Now this sādhana-bhakti, or practice of devotional service, can also be divided into two parts. The first part is called regulative principles: one has to follow these different regulative principles by the order of the spiritual master or on the strength of authoritative scriptures, and there can be no question of refusal. That is called vaidhī, or regulated. One has to do it without any argument."

"Another part of sādhana-bhakti is called rāgānuga. Rāgānuga refers to the point at which, by following the regulative principles, one becomes a little more attached to Kṛṣṇa and executes devotional service out of natural love. For example, a person engaged in devotional service may be ordered to rise early in the morning and offer ārātrika, which is a form of Deity worship. In the beginning, by the order of his spiritual master, one rises early in the morning and offers ārātrika, but then he develops real attachment. When he gets this attachment, he automatically tries to decorate the Deity and prepare different kinds of dresses and thinks of different plans to execute his devotional service nicely. Although it is within the category of practice, this offering of loving service is spontaneous. So the practice of devotional service, sādhana-bhakti, can be divided into two parts, namely, regulative and spontaneous."

"Rūpa Gosvāmī defines the first part of devotional practice, or vaidhī-bhakti, as follows: 'When there is no attachment or no spontaneous loving service to the Lord, and one is engaged in the service of the Lord simply out of obedience to the order of the spiritual master or in pursuance of the scriptures, such obligatory service is called vaidhī-bhakti.' "

"These principles of vaidhī-bhakti are also described in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Second Canto, First Chapter, verse 35 (SB 2.1.35), where Śukadeva Gosvāmī instructs the dying Mahārāja Parīkṣit as to his course of action. Mahārāja Parīkṣit met Śukadeva Gosvāmī just a week before his death, and the King was perplexed as to what should be done before he was to pass on. Many other sages also arrived there, but no one could give him the proper direction. Śukadeva Gosvāmī, however, gave this direction to him as follows: 'My dear King, if you want to be fearless in meeting your death next week (for actually everyone is afraid at the point of death), then you must immediately begin the process of hearing and chanting and remembering God.' So if one can chant and hear Hare Kṛṣṇa and always remember Lord Kṛṣṇa, then he is sure to become fearless of death, which may come at any moment."

"In the statements of Śukadeva Gosvāmī it is said that the Supreme Personality of Godhead is Kṛṣṇa. Therefore Śukadeva Gosvāmī recommends that one should always hear about Kṛṣṇa. He does not recommend that one hear and chant about the demigods. The Māyāvādīs, or impersonalists, say that you can chant any name, either that of Kṛṣṇa or those of the demigods, and the results will be the same. But actually this is not a fact. According to the authorized version of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, one has to hear and chant about Lord Viṣṇu (Kṛṣṇa) only."

"So Śukadeva Gosvāmī has recommended to Parīkṣit Mahārāja that in order to be fearless of death, one has to hear and chant and remember the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa, by all means. He also mentions that the Supreme Personality of Godhead is sarvātmā. Sarvātmā means the Supersoul of everyone. Kṛṣṇa is also mentioned as īśvara, the supreme controller who is situated in everyone's heart. Therefore, if some way or other we become attached to Kṛṣṇa, He will make us free from all danger. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said that anyone who becomes a devotee of the Lord is never vanquished. Others, however, are always vanquished. 'Vanquished' means that after getting this human form of life, a person does not come out of the entanglement of birth and death, and thus he misses his golden opportunity. Such a person does not know where he is being thrown by the laws of nature."

"Suppose one does not develop Kṛṣṇa consciousness in this human form of life. He will then be thrown into the cycle of birth and death, involving 8,400,000 species of life, and his spiritual identity will remain lost. One does not know whether he is going to be a plant, or a beast, or a bird, or something like that, because there are so many species of life. The recommendation of Rūpa Gosvāmī for reviving our original Kṛṣṇa consciousness is that somehow or other we should apply our minds to Kṛṣṇa very seriously and thus also become fearless of death."

"After death we do not know our destination, because we are completely under the control of the laws of nature. Only Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, is controller over the laws of nature. Therefore, if we take shelter of Kṛṣṇa seriously, there will be no fear of being thrown back into the cycle of so many species of life. A sincere devotee will surely be transferred to the abode of Kṛṣṇa, as affirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā."

"In the Padma Purāṇa also, the same process is advised. There it is said that one should always remember Lord Viṣṇu. This is called dhyāna, or meditation—always remembering Kṛṣṇa. It is said that one has to meditate with his mind fixed upon Viṣṇu. Padma Purāṇa recommends that one always fix his mind on the form of Viṣṇu by meditation and not forget Him at any moment. And this state of consciousness is called samādhi, or trance."

"We should always try to mold the activities of our lives in such a way that we will constantly remember Viṣṇu, or Kṛṣṇa. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Whether one concentrates his mind on the four-handed form of Viṣṇu or on the form of two-handed Kṛṣṇa, it is the same. The Padma Purāṇa recommends: somehow or other always think of Viṣṇu, without forgetting Him under any circumstances. Actually, this is the most basic of all regulative principles. For, when there is an order from a superior about doing something, there is simultaneously a prohibition. So when the order is that one should always remember Kṛṣṇa, the prohibition is that one should never forget Him. Within this simple order and prohibition, all regulative principles are found complete."

"This regulative principle is applicable to all varṇas and āśramas, the castes and occupations of life. There are four varṇas, namely the brahmins, the kṣatriyas, the vaiśyas and the śūdras. There are also four standard āśramas, namely brahmacarya, gṛhastha, vānaprastha and sannyāsa. The regulative principles are not only for the brahmacārīs to follow, but are applicable for all. It doesn't matter whether one is a beginner—a brahmacārī—or if one is very advanced—a sannyāsī. The principle of remembering the Supreme Personality of Godhead constantly and not forgetting Him at any moment is meant to be followed by everyone, without fail."

"If this injunction is followed, then all other rules and regulations will automatically fall into line. All other rules and regulations should be treated as assistants or servants to this one basic principle. The injunctions of rules and regulations and the resultant reactions are mentioned in the Eleventh Canto of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Fifth Chapter, first and second verses (SB 11.5.1). Camasa Muni, one of the nine sages who came to instruct King Nimi, addressed the King and said, 'The four social orders, namely the brahmins, the kṣatriyas, the vaiśyas and the śūdras, have come out of the different parts of the universal form of the Supreme Lord as follows: the brahmins have come out from the head, the kṣatriyas have come out from the arms, the vaiśyas have come out from the waist and the śūdras have come out from the legs. Similarly, the sannyāsīs have come out from the head, the vānaprasthas from the arms, the gṛhasthas from the waist and the brahmacārīs from the legs.' "

"These different orders of society and grades of spiritual advancement are conceived in terms of qualification. It is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā that the four social orders and the four spiritual orders are created by the Lord Himself, in terms of different individual qualities. As the different parts of the body have different types of activities, so the social orders and spiritual orders also have different types of activities in terms of their qualification and position."

"The target of these activities, however, is always the Supreme Personality of Godhead. As it is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā, 'He is the supreme enjoyer.' So whether one is a brāhmaṇa or a śūdra, he has to satisfy the Supreme Lord by his activities. This is also confirmed in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam by a verse which reads, 'Everyone must be engaged in his particular duty, but the perfection of such work should be tested by how far the Lord is satisfied with such activities.' The injunction herein is that one has to act according to his position, and by such activities, one must either satisfy the Supreme Personality or else fall down from his position."

Prabhupāda: That's all.

Śyāmasundara: It's so clear.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Śyāmasundara: It's so clear, this book.

Prabhupāda: You read regularly Nectar of Devotion. Regularly. All these books should be regularly read. That will give you guidance. You haven't got to ask repeatedly to me; everything is there. You are selling Nectar of Devotion?

Devotee (1): We're waiting for our next shipment from Japan. Then we'll begin.

Prabhupāda: These four books will give you all guidance—Kṛṣṇa, Nectar of Devotion, Bhagavad-gītā As It Is, and . . . what is that?

Upendra: Teachings of Lord Caitanya.

Prabhupāda: All guidance. Rādhā-kṛṣṇa bolo bolo bolo re sobāi.

Śyāmasundara: What does that mean?

Prabhupāda: Lord Caitanya is preaching simply this, that you all chant Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa, or Hare Kṛṣṇa, that's all. Ei śikhā diyā, sab nadīyā phirche nece' gaura-nitāi: "By teaching this philosophy, the two brothers, Gaura-Nitāi, are traveling all over Nadia." Māyār bośe, jāccho bhese', khāccho hābuḍubu bhāi: "Why you are being carried away by the waves of māyā? Why, unnecessarily? And you are being drowned and saved."

Jīv kṛṣṇa-dās, e biśwās, korle . . . "Simply believe that you are eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa, then all these troubles immediately gone." Bolbe jabe, pulak ha'be, that "If you chant this, then you will feel ecstasy." Rādhā kṛṣṇa bolo, saṅge calo, ei-mātra bhikhā, "So I don't ask you anything. Simply chant and come with me." Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura. Have you got puffed rice? No.

Upendra: In the shop. You have to get it from a shop.

Prabhupāda: But I don't think you can get now.

Devotee (1): We could try.

Śyāmasundara: Any stores open?

Devotee (1): I'll go see.

Śyāmasundara: That supermarket?

Upendra: It's Easter Sunday.

Devotee (1): There's a little shop, they always carry puffed rice in the little shop. Holidays?

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Śyāmasundara: Puffed rice in the box.

Devotee (1): Yeah. I'll see.

Prabhupāda: You have got peanuts?

Upendra: Yes. Peanuts, milk.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Upendra: Peanuts and milk?

Prabhupāda: No, puffed rice and peanuts, and milk separate. (laughter)

Upendra: This flower . . . just these flowers here in the vase on your desk, they only . . . the smell, the flavor, only comes out at night.

Prabhupāda: Rajanigandha. They are called Rajanigandha.

Upendra: Night Queen?

Prabhupāda: Very nice flower . . . (indistinct) . . . in English is called . . . (indistinct) . . .? What do you call in English?

Upendra: Night Queen.

Prabhupāda: Night Queen?

Upendra: In Fiji they call them Night Queen. I didn't know if this was the same thing.

Prabhupāda: Just see how Kṛṣṇa's creation, wonderful creation. And they defy. Oh, what nonsense they are. There is no brain in creating such nice flower, flavor? "It is automatic, nature, nature." What is this nature? Rascal. Nature means rascaldom. Nature. What do you mean by nature? Just see how foolish they are. They cannot explain what is this nature. Simply say. I'm simply sorry that the so-called institution, education, simply making people all fools and rascals. That is my grief only. I am therefore trying to give them some intelligence.

The whole program is to create some fools and rascals, that's all. Any philosopher, any scientist comes, I can say that, "You are simply creating fools and rascals, because you are also fools and rascals." I can say, challenge. Then let us come to argument. "You are such a fool and rascal, and you are creating fools and rascals, that's all. That is your business." And that is going on as the advancement of education. You do not know. What do you . . . how do you explain? You say nature. That means you are fool.

We have got our explanation: Kṛṣṇa. His energy is working. Svābhāvikī jñāna-bala-kriyā ca (Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad 6.8). His energy is so fine and nice that automatically it appears that the color has come, the painting has come, but there is working, very fine work, working. The modern science, you want to talk with a friend, immediately you pay something, telephone, "Yes, I am speaking." Actually the man is there, he is talking and I am hearing, but by scientific arrangement it is so that he is thousand miles away, just like speaking with him. But he has come before me. Although he is away thousand miles, it appears that he has come before me and talking.

So if this energy, electric energy, can work so wonderful, how much wonderful energies are there in Kṛṣṇa that He is working and it is coming out, automatically. You say . . . cannot explain, you will say it is nature. No. The same working is there. Just like if you paint one flower, you have to take the brush, color, and nicely . . . you cannot do as nice. So Kṛṣṇa has also to do the same thing, but the energy is so fine and quick, svābhāvikī jñāna-bala-kriyā ca. Kṛṣṇa's energies will go on. Just like if you want to create something, a house, you have to apply your engineer, your contractor, the ingredients. But Kṛṣṇa also will do the same thing. But His energies are so fine and expert, He desires, "Let there be a skyscraper," immediately there is. But the process is there. Don't think it has come automatically.

The same thing: If you want to speak to a friend a thousand miles away, you have to go there and find him, or he has to come. The process is there. By electricity, immediately he comes. Is it not be possible? Process is there that he has to come or you have to go. But by electricity, it has shortened. Similarly, the working capacity is going there, but it is so shortened and perfect, you see, "Oh, it has come automatically by nature." Not automatically. The process is so nice and short. That is real explanation. Process is there. You cannot say that . . . it appears like miracle because your brain cannot accommodate how quickly all these things come. You have got poor brain; you cannot accommodate. You are thinking, "If I have to . . . I have to paint this, simply painting I have to take so much time."

Just like if a man asks you one thousand dollar, he is thinking, "He has to collect and pay me." But if you write a note, give it to Nanda-kumāra, and he keeps it as check, and Nanda-kumāra pays immediately one thousand dollar. So he will be surprised, "How is that? What is this writing, this immediately one thousand dollar came?" Because he is thinking, "To all one thousand dollar, it will take one thousand days, and Swāmījī wrote like this, and immediately." The process is there. One thousand dollar collection, I have to do something and it has come there, it is . . . but the energy is so quick, energy is so perfect, that simply by giving a note and he gets it. You cannot say the process is not there. The process is there.

Just like modern scientific method has minimized space and time. For coming to Australia, fifty years ago it would have taken six months. Now we come six hours. The process coming is there. By scientific method, the space and time has been shortened. Similarly, in manufacturing this flower, the process is there; but the system of Kṛṣṇa's energy is so perfect, it has shortened. Parāsya śaktir vividhaiva . . . svābhāvikī jñāna-bala-kriyā ca (Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad 6.8, CC Madhya 13.65, purport). Just like . . . what is that machine, IBM?

Śyāmasundara: Computer.

Prabhupāda: Computer. That is mechanical, the calculating. The calculating process is there, but by nice machine, it has shortened. That process is Kṛṣṇa's energy. He is so expert that it is just like computers—immediately comes. Not that the process is not there. Process is there. (break)

Śyāmasundara: It seems like the more and more scientists try to investigate and imitate this process, they become more and more entangled in the complications. They can't understand it.

Prabhupāda: That process is crude. They are thinking that it is very fine, but it is still crude. Just like here, the . . . (pause) What I was speaking?

Śyāmasundara: The more scientists investigate the workings of nature, the more complicated it becomes. They can never understand it.

Prabhupāda: No.

Śyāmasundara: They think it's complicated, but still . . .

Prabhupāda: Not complicated; it is perfect.

Śyāmasundara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: But they have no brain to understand.

Śyāmasundara: It becomes more complex.

Prabhupāda: Just like any ordinary man, how this tape recorder is working? There is a process. But because we have no brain, we think, "How it has become? How it has become?"

Śyāmasundara: It's so complex to us.

Prabhupāda: So one who does not know, it is complex. One who is in knowledge, for him it is not complex. Therefore Bhāgavata says anvayād vitarekabhyam. Anvayād itarataś ca artheṣu abhijñaḥ (SB 1.1.1). The Supreme Personality of Godhead is completely well versed. Well versed. Kṛṣṇa just like says: "Yes, I spoke this philosophy millions of years. I remember; you have forgot." There we have to study, how Kṛṣṇa's brain is.

Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā, "Yes, I spoke." When Arjuna defied, "How can I believe that You spoke millions of years ago this philosophy to sun-god?" "Yes, that's a fact. You also were there. But I remember; you don't remember." The child, just like father says: "My dear child, when you were two years old you fell down and there was a fracture in your brain." And child, "Yes?" He cannot remember. The father can say: "Yes, it happened. You have forgotten. I remember." This is practical.

Similarly, Kṛṣṇa can remember everything, vedāhaṁ samatītāni (BG 7.26). You may not remember. You have no such brain. You are teeny. But why should you defy Kṛṣṇa? Why should you deny the facility for Kṛṣṇa? That means you are thinking, "Kṛṣṇa, He is like me." Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā. Because you are rascal, you are thinking Kṛṣṇa is like another rascal like you. That is poor fund of knowledge. Paraṁ bhāvam ajānanto (BG 9.11). "Because they do not know, rascal, what I am, what I can do," avajānanti, "they think, 'Kṛṣṇa is like me.' "

Śyāmasundara: So actually most people are innocent, but if the . . .

Prabhupāda: Not innocent—rascal. Innocent, another thing. Innocent, if he is innocent, if I say: "You do not know, this is . . ." "Oh," then he will accept. But he will protest, a rascal. Innocent will accept. Therefore the more one is innocent, simple, it is easy for him, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The more one is rascal, it is very difficult.

Upendra: Is one called Māyāvāda philosophy?

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Upendra: Māyāvādīs, are they thinking like that, Kṛṣṇa is . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, "He is ordinary man. A little better than me, that's all." That Dr. Frog's philosophy. Atlantic was, "That's all right, may be little one feet more than this well, that's all." He cannot imagine that millions of wells will be not compared. That he cannot begin. He says: "Yes, it may be bigger, say one foot bigger, two feet bigger. All right, ten feet bigger; make compromise." That's all. He will never think that beyond his estimation. Never think. He'll simply calculate, "All right, if not one, two feet, three feet. All right, ten feet." And the friend will say: "No, no, it is very, very great."

Śyāmasundara: Once you said . . . you quoted one verse in Māyāpur and you said that everyone is dancing under Kṛṣṇa's direction. I forgot your explanation.


ekale īśvara kṛṣṇa, āra saba bhṛtya
yāre yaiche nācāya, se taiche kare nṛtya
(CC Adi 5.142)

Kṛṣṇa is so kind. As Māyāvādī philosopher you want to do something, Kṛṣṇa will "All right, dance in this way. Dance. All right, dance. You talk like this." Kṛṣṇa gives him capacity to talk. Otherwise, he cannot talk even. So Kṛṣṇa gives him intelligence, counterargument: "All right, let the rascal speak as he likes." Therefore, yāre yaiche nācāya: He is allowing to dance everyone as he desires.

But He says that, "You give up all this nonsense, you simply surrender unto Me." That is His version. Otherwise, if you want to dance, "All right, I give you facility to dance." The karmīs are dancing. "All right, dance." The jñānīs are dancing. "All right, dance. Go on speculating, but you will never understand Me."

Śyāmasundara: But He is always playing the tune, Kṛṣṇa?

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Śyāmasundara: Kṛṣṇa is always playing the tune by which everyone is dancing?

Prabhupāda: No. You wanted to dance like this, He is giving facility. He is not in agreement with you.

Śyāmasundara: Oh, I see.

Prabhupāda: Otherwise, why does He say: "You give up all this nonsense. You surrender"? He does not approve, but he wanted to dance, "All right, you take the facility, dance." He doesn't like it that you should dance like that, but he wants. "All right, you dance. You can take the facility, dance." Just like my Guru Mahārāja, Tīrtha Mahārāja wanted his property. "All right, take this property." But what he is doing?

Śyāmasundara: (laughs) Sitting there in his wheelchair.

Prabhupāda: "You wanted property, take property. All right." He's kind, "All right, this man gave me some service, he wants this property. All right, take this property." But what he has gained?

Śyāmasundara: Nothing.

Prabhupāda: Yes. I never wanted his property. I simply desired that such a sublime message, that my poetry, that . . .

Śyāmasundara: First poem upon arriving.

Prabhupāda: Yes. "Miracle done." I wanted, "Oh, there is a miracle. If I try to preach this miracle in the world." So he has given me the facility. I never wanted the Gauḍīya Maṭha buildings.

Śyāmasundara: So because you desired in a certain way, he provided that facility also.

Prabhupāda: Yes, I desired that, "Such a wonderful message, why not preach?"

Devotee (3): And you got buildings also.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Devotee (3): You got buildings . . .

Prabhupāda: Building automatically comes. But rascal fools, they do not understand this. That is mentioned in the . . . in bhakti, other success follows. Just like when the queen goes, there are many maidservants catching the . . . what is called?

Śyāmasundara: Train.

Prabhupāda: Train, yes. They follow. So if bhakti follows, then all other things follows. Bilvamaṅgala Ṭhākura also says that muktiḥ mukulitāṅjali sevate asmān, bhaktis tvayi sthiratarā yadi bhagavan syād. "If there is pure devotion for You, then muktiḥ mukulitāṅjali, mukti is standing, 'My dear sir, what can I do for you?' Folded hand." Dharmārtha-kāma-mokṣa samaya-pratīkṣāḥ (SB 4.8.41): "And the material happiness, they are simply waiting." The servant waits, "Yes, sir, what do you want?"

Śyāmasundara: (laughs) Boy. Phew.

Prabhupāda: Simply one has to develop.

bhaktis tvayi sthiratarā bhagavan yadi syād
daivena naḥ phalati divya-kiśora-mūrtiḥ
muktiḥ (svayaṁ) mukulitāñjali sevate 'smān
dharmārtha-kāma-(gatayaḥ) samaya-pratīkṣāḥ
(SB 4.8.41).

There is definition given by . . . bhaktis sthiratarā, "Unflinching devotional service, if there is, then by Your will, anyone can see," divya-kiśora mūrtiḥ, "can see Me." And so far other things are concerned, mukti and bhukti, they are simply waiting.

Śyāmasundara: The whole secret of life has been lost when this civilization was lost. Every knowledge.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So you try to give them, these foolish men. They are after dharma artha kāma mokṣa (SB 4.8.41, CC Adi 1.90). Therefore Bhāgavata begins, dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo 'tra (SB 1.1.2): all this cheating, rascaldom, is thrown away. Dharma artha kāma mokṣa. Dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo 'tra. Śrīdhara Svāmī explains kaitavaḥ, these are all cheating. The so-called religion, so-called economic development, so-called sense gratification, so-called liberation, they're all cheating.

Śyāmasundara: Because they promise something they don't deliver?

Prabhupāda: No, no. Even if you get it, what do you get? You go to . . . supposed you go to church: "God, give us our daily bread." God is giving, then what do you get? Bread is given to the animals also. Why you are going to the church? That is the Communist say that, "We shall give you bread. Why you waste your time with so-called religion?" The politician says that "You want to be happy, there is technology.

Why you are going to pray to God? This is all nonsense." They are thinking that. But prayer is not meant for that purpose. Prayer . . . just like we are praying, but our prayer is, "Kṛṣṇa, kindly engage me in Your service," Hare Kṛṣṇa. "O the energy of Kṛṣṇa, O the Lord Kṛṣṇa, please engage me in Your service." This is our prayer. We are not going to pray, "O God, give us our daily bread." And if you get bread, then what do you gain?

Śyāmasundara: We've all experienced that. We've had so much bread. What did we get?

Prabhupāda: That's it. Even you get bread, what do you get? Bread is already given even to the animals. That they do not know. Therefore they take religion for material gain, dharma artha. And Bhāgavata says, arthasya dharmaikāntasya kāmo lābhāya hi smṛtaḥ. When you get money, it is not for satisfaction of your senses. Kāmasya nendriya-prītir (SB 1.2.10). And when it is the question of kāma, desire, that does not mean sense gratification. Lābho jīveta yāvatā. Simply you have to accept thing for living. It is not that you shall not eat. You eat, live. Then what for living? Jīvasya tattva-jijñāsā nārtho yaś ceha karmabhiḥ. Your working so hard is not that to develop your material condition of life. You live peacefully, without any disturbance of hunger, but your life should be engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, asking about Kṛṣṇa. That is life.

So we don't want to stop all the activities. But they are busy always. They have no time for . . . ask all these men, they are obstructing, "What these people are doing?" You see? There is no end of their sense gratification. First of all, get one motorcar is required, "All right." As soon as he gets money, "I'll purchase another one for my son, another for my daughter, another for my wife." Going on, going on. And he has to maintain four motorcars, then work hard, hard, hard. So indriya-prītiḥ: "Oh, I have got a car. Why not my son?"

Śyāmasundara: Boy, it's vicious.

Prabhupāda: Vicious civilization. Simply increasing, increasing, increasing. And the government taking tax; therefore, he has to prepare roads. So in your country, the more the motorcar increasing, the more flying over, more bridges . . .

Śyāmasundara: More problems.

Prabhupāda: More problems. Just like in Madras we saw, they are also imitating.

Śyāmasundara: Little, tiny . . . (laughs)

Prabhupāda: Little ti . . . (chuckles)

Devotee (1): A little tiny flyover.

Prabhupāda: Yes, they are advancing.

Śyāmasundara: Only two lanes.

Prabhupāda: And doing it for unlimited years. When they will be finished, there is no guarantee. Here in your country they do, they have contract, "Yes, within six months." But there is no guarantee. But that show is going on that, "We are doing something." Because it's imitation. There was no need, but they want to make advanced like the Americans.

Śyāmasundara: Huge, open intersection, no traffic, they're building a flyover.

Prabhupāda: Similarly in Bombay also, they made one or two flyovers with great endeavor, and one flyover collapsed. That flyover between that Princesses Street and the Marine Drive, yes, collapsed. Because they are, all the contractors, are thieves. Instead of giving cement, they are giving clay.

Śyāmasundara: Now their plan is to tunnel through under Malabar Hill and make a freeway along the . . . the West Shore Freeway, Expressway, along Warden Road and Nepean Sea Road.

Prabhupāda: Freeway.

Śyāmasundara: Yes, and they began the tunnel when we first came there a year and a half ago, and now I don't think it's more than fifty yards into the mountain.

Prabhupāda: The tunnel is there?

Śyāmasundara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Where?

Śyāmasundara: Just there between . . . as you go up Nepean Sea Road past the Russian Consulate, then there is an open space.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.

Śyāmasundara: In there.

Prabhupāda: Some work is going on there?

Śyāmasundara: Yes, under there is a tunnel being excavated, under the mountain, under the Hanging Garden Park to the other side. And it will go along Chowpatty Expressway and under the mountain and then along Nepean Sea Road.

Devotee (1): But it looks like . . . (indistinct) . . . get through that.

Prabhupāda: Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, and don't be misled by these rascals. Andhā yathāndair upanīyamānāḥ. (referring to sitting place) So you have to change this. This is scratching. It is very rough.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. We need some smooth sheeting here.

Prabhupāda: Or you can take one my cloth and change.

Devotee (1): There's a cotton piece. I have one cotton cloth.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. So you got puffed rice?

Devotee (1): No, Śrīla Prabhupāda. I could not get.

Prabhupāda: Puffed rice is difficult to obtain. In India, puffed rice is very easily available.

Śyāmasundara: He says that here they close the stores and the shops. All the time the shops are closed around here.

Prabhupāda: All the time? Why?

Upendra: For holidays.

Prabhupāda: Ohhh.

Upendra: A holiday will come, everything closes down. Four days, five days at a time. Banks, post offices.

Śyāmasundara: Not even a post office open.

Prabhupāda: Ācchā?

Śyāmasundara: Even tomorrow nothing's open.

Upendra: It's really incredible. It's really a disturbance. Everything closes . . .

Prabhupāda: What kind of government it is?

Devotee (1): Loafers.

Śyāmasundara: In India, the government, er, the post office is always open. There's always some post office open. Even in small towns.

Prabhupāda: But that was also British management. Here also British management, how is that?

Upendra: In London it's always open.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Upendra: In London it's always open, the central post office.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee (1): This one shut down. They are eager to stop work and enjoy their senses. (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . so that anyone questions, you can answer. That is required, preaching. Just like this girl, "Why you are recommending your Bhagavad-gītā?" Answer must be there, "Because this is. They are all rascals. They are not speaking Bhagavad-gītā as it is."

Śyāmasundara: She understood it also.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. You have no right. Suppose I have written one book. So I have got some intention. So why should you interpret my intention with your intention? What right you have got? You have no right. If you want to speak something of yours, then you write another book. Why you are taking advantage of my book and misleading others?

I want to speak to the public something, I have expressed my opinion in that way. But because it is popular, you are taking advantage of my book and expressing your views. How much cheating, how much cheater you are. That will be Dr . . . therefore he is suffering, Dr. Radhakrishnan. He has lost his brain. We went to see him, Dr. Radhakrishnan, when I was in Madras. You went?

Śyāmasundara: Yes, like a vegetable, with no comprehension.

Prabhupāda: Lost.

Śyāmasundara: At last he's become void.

Devotee (1): Yes. He surrendered to the void.

Prabhupāda: Simply sitting down like this. He cannot ask whether he is hungry or not. His daughter is always attending, giving him some food, then he is eating. Otherwise, he does not say. Lost everything. He has mentioned Bhagavad-gītā as a mental speculation in his Indian Religion. So he is such a great offender, he must suffer. But it is good for him. Because he is a gentleman, therefore his offenses are being compensated in this life.

Devotee (1): Ohh. So he hasn't got to pay next time.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Next time he may be getting chance. Because he was at heart afraid of God. Because sometimes he was, "Swāmījī, you pray for me to God." Yes. He told me that. At heart he was. But because he is impersonalist and mundane scholar, he was writing all nonsense.

Śyāmasundara: There's a whole class of scholars now called literary critics who simply take one book, or not even a scripture but any mundane book, and they spend their whole lives making comments what this must mean, what that must mean, "This is my opinion," "This is my thesis."

Prabhupāda: Punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30), chewing the chewed.

Śyāmasundara: That really is chewing the chewed.

Prabhupāda: That is chewing the chewed.

Śyāmasundara: One book called Moby Dick . . .

Prabhupāda: That is called scholar. "Oh, he is a big scholar."

Upendra: Is that the māyayāpahṛta-jñānāḥ?

Prabhupāda: Māyayāpahṛta-jñānāḥ (BG 7.15), yes. All nonsense. You take it granted that anyone who has no Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he is a nonsense, whatever he may be. That is I take it, and I challenged him like that. I criticized Dr. Radhakrishnan in my Back to Godhead: "Scholar deluded." I was criticizing him like anything.

Upendra: That was the first Bhagavad-gītā I read was this one by Radhakrishnan.

Prabhupāda: I have criticized him like anything, yes.

Upendra: Then Paramānanda and Satyabhāmā, they brought me this, your Bhagavad-gītā.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Upendra: When I first . . . in New York.

Prabhupāda: Now this Macmillan's report is that ours selling more. Therefore, they have advanced to take up this enlarged edition. Otherwise, they are business. In the beginning they refused. They said: "No, no, we cannot publish so big volume. We can . . . if you minimize . . ." Therefore we minimized it to four hundred pages.

Śyāmasundara: They made a study. They know what's going . . . they want all of your books. In the contract for Topmost Yoga and Easy Journey they have the option to take your next big book.

Pradyumna: In Harvard Library, your Bhagavad-gītā—they have many, many Bhagavad-gītās, about four hundred, many—and Bhagavad-gītā As It Is was taken out, of late, since it's been in there, more than any other ones. They all have dust, and yours has been taken out. And Kṛṣṇa book, Kṛṣṇa book was never in. I could never see it in, because it was always out, from the very first day it was in. In fact, when it was going into the library, the head of the department, he took it right away.

Prabhupāda: Another thing happened in Los Angeles. I wanted some quotation from a place of this Teachings of Lord Caitanya. So the man came, he said: "Swāmījī, first of all I must buy this book. Either you accept or not accept our quotation, what price I shall pay you?" I said: "Give me six dollars." Immediately he took this book. "Such a nice book I have never read. So either it is printed or not printed in our press, I must take this book." Actually, these ideas what we have explained in our books, they're unknown to the modern world. Unknown.

Śyāmasundara: They're not described anywhere else. No other source.

Prabhupāda: Nobody knows that God can be person, there can be dealings like this, there are dealings actually, and they are described. That is wonderful.

Śyāmasundara: They don't know that life can be so joyful and endlessly . . .

Prabhupāda: That I wrote in my poetry. "The Absolute is senscient thou hast proved." That was striking to me. Not impersonal, "senscient thou hast proved, impersonal calamity thou hast moved." "Absolute is senscient thou hast proved." That was my acceptance. So even the many judges came in Allahabad. Do you remember?

Śyāmasundara: Yes. In Madras?

Prabhupāda: No, Allahabad during Kumbha-melā. They said: "Swāmījī, God is person, you are the first man speaking." Why first man? It is already there. They cannot believe that God is person.

Śyāmasundara: As long as there is imperson, there is doubt, there is unclear, unclear.

Prabhupāda: Unclear.

Śyāmasundara: As soon as there is person, there is no doubt—clear.

Prabhupāda: But we have tried to explain how He is person. Just like we try to explain how God is working. So one should have brain to study things. One must have clear idea how God is person, how He is working, how this cosmic manifestation is manifested by God's energy. Kṛṣṇa says, mayā tatam idaṁ sarvaṁ jagad avyakta-mūrtinā (BG 9.4): "In My impersonal feature, everything is manifested there." Tatam idaṁ sarvam. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1).

So one has to apply his brain—that is intelligence—how it has become person. That is not false; that is fact. You cannot understand; your brain is teeny. That is different thing. Now you make your brain competent to understand this philosophy.

(break) . . . vijñātaṁ bhavanti. So take this philosophy nicely, understand this philosophy, and preach. You will be victorious everywhere. Because we can challenge anyone. If you know the trick, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, you can challenge. Nārāyaṇa-parāḥ sarve na kutaścana bibhyati (SB 6.17.28). One who is nārāyaṇa-parāḥ, he is never afraid of anything.

Śyāmasundara: Whenever someone challenges you, you always know the trick, what their weak point is, the weaknesses in their challenge, and you go right there. Every time.

Prabhupāda: And that is the trick of wrestling. (laughter)

Śyāmasundara: Find where they are off balance, their balance is off.

Prabhupāda: Any way. There was a wrestler, he was not very strong, but he knew the trick how to defeat the strongest man.

Śyāmasundara: There is a science of equilibrium where you can study another person. If he is off equilibrium, you can move his body in such a way to defeat him every time. Japanese art.

Prabhupāda: Train. That Los Angeles, there is one Japanese . . .

Śyāmasundara: Behind the temple. (devotee makes grunting noises imitating martial arts) (laughter)

Prabhupāda: You know?

Upendra: Yes.

Prabhupāda: What he is teaching?

Several devotees: Karate.

Prabhupāda: Karate.

Śyāmasundara: That's it, same, that art of striking someone if he is off balance a certain way.

Devotee (3): Karate is the art of hitting your nerve points. You can paralyze people with it. Just with one finger hitting on a certain nerve junction, you can paralyze a person.

Devotee (1): They do. They show movies of one man who has killed his nerves in the hand, and a bull will be running like this, and he can put his hand through the bull and grab the heart. They're like that. They show movies like that. They develop like that.

Śyāmasundara: So much wasted effort. (pause)

Prabhupāda: You have kept there some other razor?

Nanda-kumāra: I have put yours back. Yours was in a bag I could not find immediately, so I put another one there, and now I've changed it back again. (break)

Upendra: . . . at least half of the energy that you have to preach.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Upendra: We may develop at least maybe half of your energy to continuously preach someday?

Prabhupāda: Continuously?

Śyāmasundara: He says that someday he hopes that the devotees, your disciples, may acquire half of the energy that you have for preaching.

Prabhupāda: Why not full, or double? You may have doubled.

Upendra: It's inconceivable.

Prabhupāda: Just like my Guru Mahārāja did not travel all over the world, so I have got double energy than him. So you must triple energy, four times energy than me. Then actually disciple. My Godbrothers are envious because they could not do. They could not do even half of Guru Mahārāja's work, and I am doing ten times. So therefore they are envious. So if an ordinary man like me can do ten times, you are Americans (laughs) twenty times, then you are successful.

Devotee (1): If we can do twenty times, it's only because you gave us the energy.

Prabhupāda: Yes. My blessings are there, you do it, try. Just like Guru Mahārāja gave blessings to everyone, but if they do not try, if they remain Kuñja Babu, then let him remain Kuñja Babu. What can be done? If he's satisfied only one building in Māyāpur and two buildings in Vṛndāvana, that is his only ambition. The ambition is poor.

Śyāmasundara: Just like Tuṣṭa Kṛṣṇa and his wife, they hitchhiked all the way to Australia.

Prabhupāda: Just see.

Pradyumna: They landed by ship in northern Australia, Perth, where our plane first landed that night.

Prabhupāda: He is very energetic.

Śyāmasundara: And they hitchhiked across Australia, 1,500 miles through the desert.

Prabhupāda: Just see.

Śyāmasundara: He said sometimes a car would not come by for many hours, and they would be standing in the hot sun, no trees, anything.

Prabhupāda: Oh, desert, big desert.

Śyāmasundara: A huge desert they practically made their way across.

Prabhupāda: Just see.

Pradyumna: He said aborigines live there.

Prabhupāda: Oh, they may attack.

Śyāmasundara: Kangaroos. They saw some kangaroos. Those animals that jump.

Prabhupāda: They live in the desert, the kangaroos?

Śyāmasundara: Yes, semi-desert.

Pradyumna: There are many strange animals in Australia.

Prabhupāda: Predators?

Pradyumna: Just strange. The marsupials.

Śyāmasundara: Those animals that bear their young in a pouch.

Pradyumna: The pouch here, kangaroo.

Prabhupāda: That is kangaroo.

Devotee (1): And platypuses.

Devotee (4): And platypus, the platypus animal.

Śyāmasundara: Half bird, half . . .

Devotee (4): Half snake.

Śyāmasundara: Under water.

Devotee (4): Half beaver?

Prabhupāda: Hmm, snake? Snake?

Devotee (1): Yeah, it's part . . . it has some snake features, it has webbed feet, it has a duck like a beaver, a body like a . . .

Pradyumna: A tail like a beaver.

Śyāmasundara: A bill like a duck.

Devotee (1): And a tail like a beaver, and a body like a wolverine or something.

Prabhupāda: So the Vedic literature says 8,400,000.

Devotee (1): This is all in one.

Prabhupāda: This is Kṛṣṇa's mercy. If somebody is thinking, "If I had like this, like that, like that, like that," "All right, you will have all." (laughter) Just like Hiraṇyakaśipu wanted to save himself in this way, that . . . "Yes, all are granted," but still he had to die. All granted. So we are trying to take facilities from Kṛṣṇa, beginning from "O God, give us our daily bread," then "Give me motorcar," then "Give me aeroplane," then "Give me this, give me that." "Take all, but you will never be happy unless you surrender to Me. You take all."

This is going on. The modern civilization, they are wanting, "We may have this, we may have that, we may have this, we may have that." "Yes, you take all. But don't talk of happiness, please." That is the only problem. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam (BG 18.66), if you want this. Otherwise, you take whatever you like.

Śyāmasundara: The devotees, they don't care. They'll go across the desert hitchhiking, but Kṛṣṇa gives them happiness. They're happy.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is happiness. They are going for Kṛṣṇa, that is happiness. They forget the trouble.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. Today he's gone again. (break)

Prabhupāda: Don't be doubtful about this at least. You might do or not do, but at least you be convinced that this is the nicest thing we have got. Yes. And there is no comparison.

Śyāmasundara: No.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: And the more we experience it, the more we become convinced.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: There's . . . (end)