750407 - Morning Walk - Mayapur
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Money is nothing but paper, but with the paper I can buy food. So why is it that we say that money is nothing but paper?
Prabhupāda: You belong to the cheaters' association. You are cheated, and you cheat others. So the whole world is the association of cheaters and cheated. That's all. Because you are cheated, you want to cheat others.
Devotee: Sometimes, Śrīla Prabhupāda, they say well, if there is no God, then it doesn't matter what I do. But there is God, and He knows what I am going to do at every moment, then it doesn't matter what I do either. He knows what I am going to do, so what does it matter? I can do anything.
Prabhupāda: Yes, but why do you suffer? Why do you suffer? You do anything, that's all right, but why do you suffer?
Devotee: Well, it's all God's plan. I suffer according to God's plan; I enjoy according to God's plan.
Prabhupāda: Then there is God?
Devotee: Yeah, there may be God, but what does it matter what I do? He is controlling everything. What do I have to say?
Prabhupāda: You are so senseless that you do not understand that you are suffering. That is required. That, just like cats and dogs, they are suffering, they cannot understand. Your position is like that. So our point is that you are suffering, but if you become obedient to God, you will not suffer. That is our propaganda. But you are so fool, rascal, that you do not know you are suffering. And still you are denying. God is the master, so if you do something wrong, you must suffer. That you are suffering. And we are preaching that don't do wrong, be very nice, you will not suffer. This is our propaganda.
Satsvarūpa: But the devotees, they seem to be suffering too, from. . .
Prabhupāda: Yes, you cannot expect, if you are suffering from some disease, you cannot expect to be cured immediately. But one who is taking the medicine, he is intelligent. His sufferings will be gone. But these rascals, they will not take medicine even. They will continue to suffer. This is the position. Devotees actually do not suffer, but you see that he is suffering, because you are suffering. Devotees do not suffer.
Madhudviṣa: What happens to them?
Prabhupāda: They enjoy. They enjoy. Hare Kṛṣṇa! How you are dancing always, Hare Kṛṣṇa, unless you are enjoying?
Madhudviṣa: Sometimes I get sick stomach too.
Prabhupāda: That's all right, because you have got this body. And after giving up this body, completely blissful life. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9). You are not going to get another body of suffering. That is your advantage. And these rascals, they are going to continue, one body after another, simply suffering. And for the devotees, although they do not suffer, it is just like the fan is moving, you make the switch off. It is actually not moving, it is by the last force it is moving, but the switch is off. And it will stop suffering. But you have no such chance. You will simply go on suffering, moving, moving, moving, bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate (BG 8.19). You shall have to accept one body, suffer, and again give up this body, another body suffer. Because so long as you'll accept material body, this body or that body, you will have to suffer. Material body means suffering. So those who are not Kṛṣṇa conscious, they will change bodies one after another and continue to suffer threefold miseries. And devotees, actually they are not suffering, but even if you say they are suffering, so after giving up this body, they are no more accepting material body. They will remain in spiritual body.
Satsvarūpa: The materialist would say that is our faith.
Satsvarūpa: The materialist says that is our faith.
Prabhupāda: It may be your faith also; you do not believe it. Your faith: wrong faith. And if we are accepting this faith, so if there is chance, so we are getting promotion. But you have no faith; you will continue to suffer. We are at least taking the chance, but you are so foolish, you are not taking the chance even. So your suffering will continue.
Jayapatāka: In India they say, "Well, we will take the chance when Kṛṣṇa wishes. Whenever He wishes. His will is everything, that whenever He makes me Kṛṣṇa conscious, then. . ."
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa said that you become Kṛṣṇa conscious, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). He wishes. Why you don't take up His wish?
Gargamuni: Because He is everything.
Prabhupāda: He is everything; therefore ask Him. You do it.
Gargamuni: I am nothing; He is everything.
Prabhupāda: You can speak like rascal. (laughter) Why you are speaking?
Trivikrama: Jaya Gurudeva. Double-talk.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Why did God arrange for the pleasures of sense gratification if He wants us to go back to home, back to Godhead?
Prabhupāda: Yes, senses are meant for enjoyment. But if you want to enjoy your senses in diseased condition, that is your misfortune. You have to cure your disease, then you will enjoy. Just like the tongue, in diseased condition, even if you are given rasagullā, you will not taste it. Senses, senses. . . We are not the Māyāvādīs. They finish the senses, make. . . become impersonal. That is not our program. We want to purify the senses. Sarvopādhi vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam (CC Madhya 19.170). Purīfy. The diseased man, he cannot see. He has got some glaucoma disease. Cure it, and he will see very nicely. That is our program. The Māyāvādī program is that if this eye is giving trouble, I cannot see, pluck it out. We are not doing that. We are trying to cure the disease and see. So senses should be cured, and then you will be able to enjoy. That is our program. We are not stopping sense enjoyment; we are trying to give you real sense enjoyment.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes, but I see that your devotees, they are working every day, doing so many things. I am also working. Why is it that. . .
Prabhupāda: But you are working blindly. Just like monkey, he is busy, but he does no value. You work under our direction, then it will be of value. (japa) Hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa sevanaṁ bhaktir ucyate (CC Madhya 19.170). Senses are not to be abolished. This cannot be. It has to be purified. And then, when the senses are engaged in the service of the proprietor of the senses, then it will be perfect.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So this body is temporary anyway, so aren't these senses temporary also?
Prabhupāda: No. Senses are there. The dog has senses; you have got also senses. Body may change, but the senses will continue.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But when the body is finally finished, aren't the senses also finished?
Prabhupāda: No. Body will have finished when you are liberated. Otherwise, one after another, another body, that's all. Childhood body is finished; you have got another body. But in a childhood body there were senses, and still you have got senses. The body may change, but the senses will continue. Even in the small ant, for sense gratification they gather as soon as there will be grain of sugar immediately. They have got the same senses. Just like you run after something according to your estimation very big, for them that one grain of sugar is very big. So they are also running after sense gratification. So anybody, viṣaya karuṇa sarva dakṣaya, whatever body you may get, the senses will be there, and you'll enjoy, according to your capacity.
Yaśodānandana: If we take the position of an objective observer, and we look at the hog and we see that his standard of happiness is very low. . .
Prabhupāda: You become attracted. When the hog enjoys senses without any discrimination, you become attracted: "Very nice. Why not get this facility?" That is your fault—you become attracted. Whatever you see, you are so in diseased condition, you become attracted by that. That is your disease.
Yaśodānandana: The point that I was trying to establish was that if a hog has a standard of happiness. . .
Prabhupāda: You have got also.
Yaśodānandana: . . .which he is satisfied with, we also have a standard of happiness which we are satisfied with, as devotees. Could there be. . . Who is to say there is not a higher standard of happiness, higher than what we think is the ultimate happiness? See, we are thinking that to become liberated from this material body and go back to home is the highest happiness, and we are feeling this is our standard of happiness.
Prabhupāda: Hmm. Because the happiness which you are enjoying, these are not actually satisfying. You are not actually satisfied; therefore you want transfer of happiness from this field to that field. That means you are not actually happy. Otherwise, why these rascals, they are enjoining the same vagina at home, and why they go to see vagina in the theater? The vagina is there, but they think that to see vagina at home is not so good, but to see vagina on the stage is better. That is your disappointment. You'll see the same vagina, here and there. You'll go there by purchasing ticket. That is your misfortune.
Trivikrama: But the devotee is ātmārāma.
Prabhupāda: Yes. All these Paris big men, they go to see the vagina at night, purchasing ticket, fifty dollars. All big, big men. In Paris there are so many clubs.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The Lido.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Lido is the leading nightclub in Paris.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughter) Is it?
Devotee: No, no, I have not been there. I don't know. (laughter)
Prabhupāda: No, no. You know such clubs are there.
Devotee: I know the clubs are there. I used to go.
Prabhupāda: That's said. And that is much. These rascals are chewing the chewed. One thing one has chewed, and throwing it, and again another person trying to chew it—if there is any mellow, if there is any sweetness. This is going on. Just like our Indian leaders, they are going to chewing the chewed. They are seeing the effect of material civilization in the Western countries, and they are going to imitate it, thinking that they will be happy with that. They are giving up their own culture, and they are going to accept another culture which is already failed.(?) Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās te 'pīśa-tantryām uru-dāmni baddhāḥ. Na te viduḥ svārtha gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ (SB 7.5.31).
- matir na kṛṣṇe parataḥ svato vā
- mitho 'bhipadyeta gṛha-vratānām
- adānta gobhir viśatāṁ tamisraṁ
- punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām
- (SB 7.5.30)
Adānta gobhir. Real disease is adānta go, uncontrolled senses. Viśatāṁ tamisram, entering into the darkest region of material existence. Punaḥ punaś carvita carvaṇānām, chewing the chewed, again and again, the same sense gratification—sometimes as a human being, sometimes as a hog, sometimes as a dog, sometimes as a demigod. But the business is the same: punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām. Either at home or in the club or in the. . .
Brahmānanda: Why is India not satisfied with its own culture? If the Westerners are now going after the spiritual culture. . .
Prabhupāda: Because your forefathers came from England and taught them like this. That is the real fact. India was satisfied, but the Lord Macaulay, they said no, that if you keep Indian as Indian, you'll never be able to rule over them. Cultural conqueror. So they began to teach Indians England's work in India. "Whatever you have got, that is all nonsense. You learn from us." And the first product is Jawaharlal Nehru. This is the misfortune of foreign rule.
Yaśodānandana: It would seem then that English culture is stronger than Indian culture then.
Yaśodānandana: It seems that the English culture has conquered over the Indian culture then.
Prabhupāda: No, Indian culture is still going on. It is not lost. Otherwise how it is going to your country and bringing you? (laughter)
Ravīndra-svarūpa: A person might argue that the Indians weren't satisfied either; otherwise they wouldn't have taken up the English culture. So what's the difference?
Prabhupāda: No. When you are standing on two boats you'll never be satisfied. It is very dangerous position, you know? Two boats on the river, and if you put one leg here, one leg here, it is always troublesome. Either you give up this or give up that. Then your position will be safe. But India's position is like that. Two boats he is standing, and he is troubled.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The English taught devotional service to England. The English were teaching devotional service to England.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Because the Indian people, they have such a feeling for bhakti and service. Everywhere in the world we go. . .
Prabhupāda: But the Englishmen never took that line, and when. . .
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Did they teach God consciousness?
Prabhupāda: . . .when our Godbrothers Tirtha Mahārāja and Bon Mahārāja was sent, Lady Willingdon, (s)he derided them that "You Indian people, you come here. . ." (break)
Rāmeśvara: . . .Western civilization is very good for the world.
Prabhupāda: Yes, but they cannot teach their own children. They are becoming hippies. That is the effect of their education.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Phalena paricīyate. You have to judge by the fruit.
Prabhupāda: Yes. You cannot teach your own people, and you are going to teach others. "Physician, heal thyself." (greets someone) Hare Kṛṣṇa. You have failed to teach your own children, they are disappointed, and you are going to teach others. This is another cheating. It is not the question of. . . That is another fault—"our," "your." There is no question of "our," "your." Any culture, actually if it is culture, it is meant for the whole human society. Why do you say "our," "your"? We never say, "The Kṛṣṇa consciousness is meant for Indians," or "for the Europeans." It is meant for everyone. That is our proposition. You have made this "our," "your," and bring another controversy. That is not the fact. Kṛṣṇa consciousness is meant both for the Indians and the Westerners. That is the fact. When Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13), "You have to change your body," Kṛṣṇa never meant that it is meant for the Indians. It is meant for everyone. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. Dehāntara-prāptiḥ is not meant that Indians only change, and they become vanished, Europeans. Dehāntara-prāptiḥ is everyone. So try to understand this philosophy.
Jayādvaita: The karmīs will say that the materialistic culture is also meant for the whole world.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That we admit. The materialistic culture, how to eat nicely, that is meant for everyone. Everyone wants to eat nicely, not that the only Europeans want, not the Indians. That is material. To sleep nicely in a good apartment, that is wanted by both the Easterners and Westerners. So there is no discrimination. Sex life, that is meant for everyone. So as material life is also meant for everyone, similarly, spiritual life is also meant for everyone.
Jayādvaita: So there are only two cultures.
Jayādvaita: The deva culture and asura culture.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So the human form of life, one should take advantage of the spiritual culture, because in other forms of life it is not possible. This is the main thing. You become Indian or American, it doesn't matter. You are human being. Take to this culture and you will be happy. This is our mission. We want to make everyone happy. Sarve sukhino bhavantu: "Everyone be happy"—with Kṛṣṇa. That is our mission.
Rāmeśvara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, you said that the children in the West, in the materialistic culture, they become hippies. They'll say that at least they've had the choice; at least they were given. . .
Prabhupāda: Again. . . again you are bringing the same question, Eastern-Western.
Prabhupāda: Materialistic means that is the ultimate end of materialistic life. Because they want new pleasure, new pleasure, new pleasures, so sometimes this, sometimes that. . . Sometimes they think the civilized way is better; sometimes the uncivilized way is better. That's all. This way and that way. That is called punaḥ punaś ca. . . And then you'll take again to civilized way of. . . I think some of the hippies are taking now. Yes. Because the same example: stool, this side or that side, it is stool. So these materialistic persons, they are trying to change from this side to that side, but it is stool. That is the. . . That they do not know. They are accepting stool as something very sublime, and therefore they are trying to change the position, sometimes this side, sometimes that side. Hitvā anyathā rūpam (SB 2.10.6). This is anyathā rūpam, a living being, being spiritual, his business is spiritual, but he has accepted material as the platform of his happiness. That is his fault. So material thing, either this side or that side, it is material. Bhoga-tyāga. So therefore he is not happy. And we are trying to give him spiritual platform for happiness. That is real happiness. But he is so much attached to the material happiness that he cannot believe that there can be any happiness beyond this range. That is his ignorance, mūḍha. Therefore we call them mūḍha, rascals. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā (BG 18.54). In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, "When you become spiritually realized, then prasannātmā, happiness." Otherwise it is not possible. Material thing, you take this side or that side—there is no question of happiness. When you become brahma-bhūtaḥ, spiritually realized, then there is happiness, prasannātmā, immediately. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati, samaḥ sarveṣu (BG 18.54). That is the. . .
Satsvarūpa: But should this be forced on people if they don't want it?
Satsvarūpa: If a large section of the people don't want spiritual life, that's their. . .
Prabhupāda: No, you cannot force. That is not possible, because he has got independence. You cannot force. You can simply give him knowledge. Therefore to distribute knowledge is the best welfare activities, not this material so-called happiness, daridra-nārāyaṇa-seva and this seva, that seva. That will not make them happy. If you give them knowledge, then they will be really benefited. Otherwise not.
Brahmānanda: How do we give knowledge to the common masses of people?
Prabhupāda: Yes, by saṅkīrtana. By hearing, hearing, hearing—this is a medicinal process—the heart will be cleansed and they will take up the knowledge. Now the heart is unclean, so he cannot take up. So this is the medicine. Kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva nāsty eva gatir anyathā. Harer nāma harer. . . (CC Adi 17.21). Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra wherever possible, and whoever will hear, he will gradually become cleansed. Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). And then bhava-mahā-dāvāgni. . . Then his material pangs will be over. This is the only medicine. Therefore chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Some way or other, let them have the chance of hearing, and then it will act as medicine. Even he does not will, you chant, you let him hear by force, and he will be cured.
Satsvarūpa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, sometimes you say only a very small percentage can take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Satsvarūpa: But yesterday morning in your lecture you were saying it can expand to ten thousand, million, or ten million.
Prabhupāda: Yes, if you take the proper way it can be increased.
Satsvarūpa: Is that just up to our preaching?
Prabhupāda: Yes. That will depend on your purified preaching activities. If you again become materially victimized, then you cannot do it. If you remain on the spiritual platform, if you try, then it will increase. Ānandāmbudhi-vardhanam. It will increase. As soon as there is any contemplation of sense gratification, then the spirit will be lost. Then instead of Christianity, it will be "Churchianity," officially going to the church, doing nothing, and gradually nobody will go.
Rūpānuga: Like the Christians.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Everywhere. Christians. . . Now who are coming here, in the so many temples? Nobody is coming. They have made it a business, "Oh, the Caitanya Mahāprabhu's birthday, you come here." And somebody will come, collect some money, and then there is no business—go away.
Jayādvaita: That requires our personal austerity.
Jayādvaita: That requires our personally being austere.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. And what is austerity? It is very simple thing. Vāsudeve bhagavati bhakti-yoga-prayojitaḥ, janayaty āśu (SB 1.2.7). If you continue devotional service to Lord Vāsudeva, Kṛṣṇa, then automatically the effect of these austerities will come, janayaty āśu, very soon. Vairāgyam. Austerities means detachment to the material world. That is the result of austerity. So śāstra says janayaty āśu vairāgyam. Simply by executing devotional service to Vāsudeva, that vairāgya, detachment, very soon arises. "Come. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." That is very good engagement.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It says in the Bhagavad-gītā that persons who at least attempt to become Kṛṣṇa conscious, they again, at least they get human form of life.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So what is the position of tyāgīs, persons who are simply trying to renounce material life? Do they. . . Are they considered on the devotional path, or do they have to fall down into lower species of life?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Is that considered attempting to become Kṛṣṇa conscious, simply to give up, say, material sense enjoyment?
Prabhupāda: No, these tyāgīs, Māyāvādīs, by their process they may attempt paraṁ padam, means Brahman effulgence. But Brahman effulgence being simply, what is called, eternity. But a living entity does not want simply eternal life, but he wants ānanda. Now, suppose if you are given, if God says that "You live here in this field eternally," would you like that?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No.
Jayādvaita: It's boring.
Prabhupāda: If you alone live in this field eternally, that is not bliss. That is punishment. You see? So that is nature. We want ānanda, blissfulness. So therefore those who are arūhya kṛcchreṇa paraṁ padam (SB 10.2.32), after severe austerities, they rise up to the Brahmān effulgence, but on account of his original nature of ānanda, he cannot remain there. He again falls down. "Oh, it was better, family life. What is this nonsense? Eternally sit up in this field? What is this? Let me go to the town and work there." You see? That is your nature. Therefore these impersonalists who want to merge, they can merge, but there they cannot remain. They will again come. These so-called sannyāsīs, they give up everything—brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā—Vivekananda or this Karpatri. Again they come to these material activities. (break) Somebody takes social work, somebody takes political work. But if it is mithyā, if it is false, why. . .? (break) But they have. . . (break) Again come, open hospital, do political work. They cannot stick up. That is not possible.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So they are not saved from the greatest danger of falling down. . .
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: . . .into the lower species of life.
Prabhupāda: Yes. They will fall down. Śāstra says. They will fall down. The same example: If I ask you that "You sit down in this vacant land and you live eternally," you will leave this place: "No, no, I don't want this eternity. Let me go to Calcutta." (laughter) (break) . . .perpetually. So that is wanted. The spiritual kingdom is Brahman effulgence, and there are Vaikuṇṭha planets. So if you take shelter of the Vaikuṇṭha planet, then you can stay. And if you take simply the impersonal Brahmān, sky, you cannot stay there. Arūhya kṛcchreṇa patanty adhaḥ (SB 10.2.32). So without varieties, simply impersonal conception of Brahmān will not make you happy.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The descriptions of Goloka Vṛndāvana, that even the dust is personal. . . So we have experience of personal form. Even Kṛṣṇa's form is personal. How is the dust of Vṛndāvana personal? How is it individual living entity?
Prabhupāda: If you want something from this dust, you cannot get it. That is material. But in Vṛndāvana, even from the dust if you want any. . . he will deliver immediately.
Jayapatāka: Would you like to see the land that we have got here, Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Jayapatāka: Just take one moment. (break)
Rāmeśvara: . . .people are enjoying, but if He's our friend. . .
Prabhupāda: For enjoying and getting slaps also, both thing. You see? When the children enjoys, sometimes the father slaps also. Why?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Disobedience. They do something that is harmful to themselves or to others.
Prabhupāda: So you can enjoy life, material life, as the father directs. So that is devotional service. Then you will enjoy. Otherwise you will get slapped.
Trivikrama: So-called enjoyment.
Prabhupāda: Yes. If you manufacture your program of enjoyment, then you will be slapped. And if you enjoy according to the direction of the father, then you'll enjoy. This is the. . . Kṛṣṇa says, "Enjoy life. All right. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī. Live peacefully. Always think of Me. Worship Me." That we have prescribed, "Come here and think of Kṛṣṇa." And so that is enjoyment. So they don't want. They want liquor. They want illicit sex. They want meat. So therefore they must be slapped. Actually all this whole universe is made for your enjoyment, but enjoy it according to His direction. Then you will enjoy. That is the difference between demigod and demon. The demon wants to enjoy, manufacturing his own way of life. And the demigod, they enjoy better than the demons because under the direction of God.
Jagadīśa: Why does Kṛṣṇa provide the living entities with these sinful pleasures?
Prabhupāda: Simple pleasures?
Jagadīśa: Sinful pleasures, such as becoming intoxicated. . .
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa does not provide. You create your sinful. Kṛṣṇa never says that "You eat meat," but you open slaughterhouse, so you suffer.
Brahmānanda: But there is a pleasure, a certain pleasure derived from these sinful activities.
Prabhupāda: What is that pleasure? (laughter)
Brahmānanda: Well, some people like to. . . They get pleasure from intoxication, they get pleasure from. . .
Prabhupāda: Yes. And therefore they suffer after-effect. That is ignorance, that immediately you get some sense pleasure, but the result is very bad. And that is sinful.
Rāmeśvara: You wrote in the Fourth Canto that if we have too much sense pleasure when we are young, then we have corresponding disease when we are older.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Here material life means as soon as you violate the rules and regulation, you will suffer. Therefore varṇāśrama-dharma is the beginning of perfection in material life. It is the beginning. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam (BG 4.13). God has created this. If you adopt this institution of varṇāśrama-dharma, then your perfection of life begins. (break)
Jayapatāka: Everyone is sending their sons and daughters to the university and colleges, and they are getting degree, but they are not getting any jobs.
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa never says that, that "You send your children to the universities and make them fools and rascals." So one who is depending on job, he's a śūdra. That is not education. Education is not meant for the śūdra but for the dvijas, twice-born, the brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya and vaiśya. Śūdras are never for education. So their education, so-called education, means creating so many śūdras. Unless he gets a job, his education is useless. Therefore he's a śūdra. And brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya—they will create their own means of livelihood. That is brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya. Therefore they are unhappy. They don't get job, neither they are able to work independently.
Nalinī-kānta: Punishment is not the best means of reformation. Sometimes if someone is sent to jail by the government, he'll simply be thinking, "Oh, when I can get out and depose these rascals?" So if someone is punished by God, he might become more angry towards God.
Prabhupāda: But that does not mean God will stop punishing you. Just like these animals. The stick is there. He may be angry, but stick is required. Otherwise you cannot work with him. "Hut!" You see? The stick is there in his hand. Otherwise he cannot get work.
(greeting someone) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya.
Nalinī-kānta: So eventually they will have to surrender.
Prabhupāda: Without surrendering there is no other alternative—willingly or unwillingly. (end)