760715 - Conversation - New York
(Radha-Damodara bus to Gita-nagari farm)
Prabhupāda: You can keep in that room?
Hari-śauri: Yes, if there are any visitors that come, we'll play them. The small ones?
Hari-śauri: So tomorrow we'll be traveling to the farm and then coming . . . returning Friday morning. And then I think in the afternoon, Friday afternoon, there's the Associated Press are coming, and also this lady from the magazine wanted to come.
Prabhupāda: Which lady?
Hari-śauri: From this India magazine? This one I just showed. The thing is, Rāmeśvara was thinking it might be too much if you did two interviews straight after each other.
Hari-śauri: Yes. So we should arrange for her to come another day.
Prabhupāda: Where is that magazine?
Hari-śauri: Well, they took it out.
Hari-śauri: You would like to . . .? I'll bring one so you can read. (break) . . . (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: There is no other seat?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, we have another seat for you.
Prabhupāda: Only one bus is going? (break)
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . going about 55 miles an hour.
Hari-śauri: (to devotee) If you hold this microphone next to your mouth—don't press that trigger, though—and then I'll put it onto the speaker . . . (indistinct)
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, I don't think so. He's just going to read.
Devotee: I don't have the . . . (break)
Devotee: (testing microphone) Jaya, all glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda! All glories to Śrī Guru, Śrī Gaurāṅga! (break)
Prabhupāda: . . . what is sun. Sun is situated in one place, everyone can see. But the heat and light, it expands. The heat and light is impersonal, but the sun is personal. Now one can imagine which is important—the heat and light or the sun? Which is important?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The sun is the most important.
Prabhupāda: So why do people give importance to imperson, less important? What is the meaning? The meaning is the fiery place is situated in one place, everyone can see. But the heat, ninety-three million miles from earth, expands. Because the sunshine is so widely expanded, it does not mean that it is more important than the sun. Go on.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (reading) "Lord Kṛṣṇa naturally has three energetic transformations, and these are known as the spiritual potency, the living entity potency and the illusory potency."Viṣṇu-śaktiḥ . . . (break)
- . . . kṣetrajñākhyā tathā parā
- tṛtīyāśaktir iṣyate
- (CC Madhya 20.112)
"Originally Kṛṣṇa's energy is spiritual and the energy known as the living entity is also spiritual. However, there is another energy called illusion, which consists of fruitive activity. That is the Lord's third potency. For further explanation of this verse, refer to the Ādi-līlā, Chapter 7, verse 119."
- śaktayaḥ sarva-bhāvānām
- yato 'to brahmaṇas tās tu
- sargādyā bhāva-śaktayaḥ
- bhavanti tapatāṁśreṣṭha
- pāvakasya yathoṣṇatā
- (CC Madhya 20.113)
"All the creative energies, which are inconceivable to a common man, exists in the Supreme Absolute Truth. These inconceivable energies act in the process of creation, maintenance and annihilation. O chief of the ascetics, just as there are two energies possessed by fire, namely heat and light, these inconceivable creative energies are the natural characteristics of the Absolute Truth."
"This is a quotation from the Viṣṇu Purāṇa."
- yayā kṣetra-jña-śaktiḥ sā
- veṣṭitā nṛpa sarva-gā
- saṁsāra-tāpān akhilān
- avāpnoty atra santatān
- (CC Madhya 20.114)
"O King, the kṣetrajña-śakti is the living entity. Although he has the facility to live in either the material or spiritual world, he suffers the threefold miseries of material existence because he is influenced by the avidya (nescience) potency, which covers his constitutional position."
"This and the following verse are also quoted from the Viṣṇu Purāṇa."
- tayā tirohitatvāc ca
- śaktiḥ kṣetra-jña-saṁjñitā
- sarva-bhūteṣu bhū-pāla . . .
- (CC Madhya 20.115)
Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct)
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . tāratamyena vartate. "This living entity covered by the influence of nescience exists in different forms in the material condition. O King, he is thus proportionately freed from the influence of material energy to greater or lesser degrees."
Prabhupāda: Inconceivable. That portion reads, what is that written? You read from "inconceivable"?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. "All the creative energies which are inconceivable to a common man exist in the Supreme Absolute Truth. These inconceivable energies act in the process of creation, maintenance and annihilation. O chief of the ascetics, just as there are two energies possessed by fire, namely heat and light, these inconceivable creative energies are the natural characteristics of the Absolute Truth."
Prabhupāda: That inconceivable energy, the scientists they are trying to conceive.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But they can't.
Prabhupāda: That is not possible. Everyone knows that due to sunshine there are leaves in the trees, green and different colors. Everyone knows, due to the sunshine. But how this sunshine, this heat and light, these things are coming into existence? They are studying, what is called, molecules? Molecules.
Hari-śauri: Yes, molecular structure.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Polygons.
Prabhupāda: So many things. But they cannot make it. Although they are seeing due to the sunshine these colors are there . . . (indistinct) . . . they cannot explain. (break)
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (bus now stationary) This electrical system, this one works when you plug the bus in. Like if you are at a campground, then these go on, and these are very bright, fluorescent. And then when traveling, this system works. Therefore we have two separate light switch panels. One is for when we plug into the regular current, and the other one is on the road. The kitchen is very nice. I wanted to show you the kitchen, Prabhupāda. It's a very different kitchen than the one that you saw originally. This is a very big kitchen. Five men can stand there. Very big. Cooking, very convenient. We've improved the buses since the last time you were here.
Prabhupāda: Hmm. These scientists, they will not admit that Kṛṣṇa is the original cause. . . . (indistinct) . . . they are trying to invent so many things and pacifying their followers, "Wait for millions of years. We will give you all solution." That millions of years will never be fulfilled, and their suffering will never go. That they do not know. Ataeva māyā tāre deya saṁsāra (CC Madhya 20.117). This life they make researches, and when they are failure they give bluff, "Wait millions of years." In the meantime he becomes a grub. He has to wait millions and trillions of . . . that's all. Again begin transmigration from grub to plant, plant to this, that, this, that. Stand up for thousands of years as a tree. Then another tree, another thousand, millions. You wanted to wait for millions, then you wait for millions. How long can you wait for . . . in this way, by transmigration. This is their destiny. And in this very life that I am prepared to go back to home, back to Godhead, that path they will not. They will wait millions of years to see their success. This is rascaldom. Wait millions of years. They do not know how they will wait. They will wait this way, again become grub. Then gradual evolution. It will take millions and trillions of years. Then again he will come to human form of life, and again he will say: "Millions of years." This is their intelligence. Hmm? What do you say?
Hari-śauri: Why wait?
Bali-mardana: Kṛṣṇa fulfills everyone's desires.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We should not wait.
Prabhupāda: This is their intelligence, these rascal scientists. Their intelligence is they admit they will wait. But he is eternal, so eternally he must get some body to wait. And if he says that after this life everything finished, then what is the meaning of wait millions of years? If I am going to be finished, you are going to be finished after this life, then there is no question of waiting for millions of years. Who will wait? You are finished, I am finished, then who will wait?
Devotee (2): They say they're working for the children in the future, make a better future.
Prabhupāda: But you are not going to wait. You are finished. And I am here, I am finished. And the children who will come, they will be finished. Who will wait? Who will wait?
Devotee (2): No one. (break)
Prabhupāda: Rascals wait for millions of years. So who will wait?
Devotee (2): They think in terms of past generations. They see the progress of society from two thousand years or four thousand years, and they think of themselves as a part of that generation, that in the future, "Just see how far we have come from a hundred years."
Prabhupāda: Part of a generation, that's all right. But a generation, so-called generation, you and me, everything will be finished. So who will wait? That is my point.
Devotee (3): What are they waiting for?
Prabhupāda: Hmm? You wait or not, you will be finished.
Devotee (4): They are thinking that this is pursuit of the truth, that they are trying to theorize.
Prabhupāda: Fools will follow you. And wherefrom he is coming with so much intelligence that the truth which you have discovered, somebody will come and catch up. His life, there is no continuation. Then there is no question of accepting your truth. We may not accept your truth. So many questions are there, but they are bluffing. Mūḍha nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam (BG 7.13). What is going on there?
Devotee: We're trying to fix this . . . (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: That is the science, they will have to wait millions of . . . that is a fact. But how they will have to wait, that these rascals they do not know. They will have to wait in this lower grade of life.
Devotee (2): Can a living entity have realization of transmigration without being Kṛṣṇa conscious?
Prabhupāda: Hmm? It is very easy, but you are so fool, you cannot understand it. Kṛṣṇa is giving immediately. The child is transmigrating to the boy's body. The soul is from boy's body is going to youthful body. Very plain explanation. But because the brain is so dull, they cannot understand. Under their scientific brain, they have become so rascal that the simple truth they cannot understand. This is their scientific advancement. Hmm?
Prabhupāda: Why we are checked? Stopped?
Devotee (2): They are shifting some equipment for cooking.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They consider, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that this is the same . . . they have a sense of not changing. That's there because the soul is not changing. Everyone has a sense that they are not changing because the soul is always there. But because they have no information of the soul, sometimes they think that because I have this body as a youth, I have this body as an old man or youthful person, the point is that they consider that it's the same person, the body, it hasn't changed. They stay the same person, simply it has grown, because they have the sense of the same identity. But can it be said . . .
Prabhupāda: No, no. Grown means the original form is changed. You can call it in a different name, but grown means the original form has changed. We are also changed.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So can it be said that one has the same body, or is it a different body?
Prabhupāda: Hmm? It is different body.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It is different.
Prabhupāda: Otherwise why more species coming? It is a different body.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: What is the energy by which one conceives that it's the same body? Is that the false ego, by which he thinks that this is . . .
Prabhupāda: No, dull brain. That Darwin's theory is that. Just like we are coming from apartment to this bus. This rascal says that apartment has become bus. That is his foolishness. I am the person from that apartment, I have come to this bus, it is a fact. But he is such a rascal, he says that apartment has become bus. That is the foolishness. How the apartment can become bus? You can say the person who was in the apartment, he has come into this bus. That is a reasonable understanding. But these rascals says that apartment has become bus. The monkey has become man.
Devotee (2): Like people sometimes go into a theater and they identify themselves with a motion picture. The movie that's on a screen, they become so emotionally involved, they cry and they laugh and they become completely involved with the picture.
Prabhupāda: That is feeling. That is not identity.
Devotee (2): (to another devotee) Want me to pull it while you hold it up?
Prabhupāda: There are many buses standing?
Devotee (2): This is a parking area for trucks. It's a rest area. We're just shifting some cooking equipment so they can prepare something.
Hari-śauri: We're going now. They just fixed that window.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: A wonderful philosophy.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This is a wonderful philosophy. It never becomes boring. Never.
Prabhupāda: So this wonderful philosophy you have to present.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's going to be nice and much quieter now, Prabhupāda, with this window closed.
Devotee (2): (indistinct) . . . without this way of life that you've given us, life would be intolerable in the material world for one who is thoughtful.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is discussed (indistinct Bengali) Unless one understands this philosophy, he simply suffers. And because they are suffering, their only solace is this wine. They cannot find out any other. The more dull-headed, this liquor is solace for the śūdra class. In India, the liquor is taken by the lowest class, not intelligent class—the washerman, the cobbler, the butcher, like that. Most less, degraded. (bus restarts) Ataeva māyā tāre deya saṁsāra-duḥkha. You continue to suffer. They are missing the point, struggling for existence. They have created this civilization, material civilization, full of factories. It is simply suffering, nothing but suffering. Maybe the factory proprietor may get some profit, but actually it is a place of suffering. Those who are working in the factory, they are simply suffering.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That is mentioned here. Ataeva māyā tāre deya saṁsāra-duḥkha.
Prabhupāda: Saṁsāra-duḥkha. Create suffering, one after another. Suffering.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "When the living entity forgets his constitutional position as an eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa, he is immediately entrapped by the illusory external energy."
Prabhupāda: Become a servant of . . . (indistinct) . . . we are servant of Kṛṣṇa . . . (break) We are not going to be servant of . . . (indistinct) . . . unless I give up Kṛṣṇa consciousness, there is no scope for being . . . to become servant. Just like this Subala, he is now washing dishes in a hotel.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And I heard that Madhudviṣa is now sweeping a floor in a restaurant.
Prabhupāda: What do you think? (laughs) And what you were doing?
Devotee: Me, I was selling jewelry.
Prabhupāda: I heard that you are driving car, you are a taxi driver.
Devotee: I tried it for a few weeks. For a couple of weeks.
Prabhupāda: We have to do this. As soon as we give up Kṛṣṇa consciousness, these things are ready, "Come on." Kṛṣṇa bhuliya jīva bhoga vañcha kare pāśate māyā tāre jāpaṭiyā dhare. "Yes, please come." There is no other alternative. Either serve Kṛṣṇa or serve māyā, that's all. So unless one is rascal, how he will accept māyā's service? Māyā's service is not very palatable. But māyā is ready. As soon as you give up Kṛṣṇa's service . . . (break) (end)