770620 - Conversation B - Vrndavana
Prabhupāda: . . . I want.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Neither would simply just begging some rice and dāl to feed ourselves.
Prabhupāda: Now Kṛṣṇa is . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) Do you think that the . . . if the scientists attend meeting, they are interested? Or they are feeling dry?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: I think they are very interested, very much. Otherwise they won't take time to discuss. In fact, some of them feel that it's very unique.
Prabhupāda: Unique it is. There was no such proposal before. They have taken God as something mystic, imagination. Especially this rascal Darwin's theory, "People are animals," and they accept that "We are animals. My father was monkey." Very easy. This rascal has convinced them that "Your father, grandfather, were monkeys, and you are Sir Walton Rose(?)." "How I became a Sir Walton Rose, the son of a monkey?" This is their business. How much bluff. Disgusted learning and jump. A monkey has become man. Body's changed.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is nonsense.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is nonsense.
Prabhupāda: Full nonsense, this rascal. How much havoc he has done to the human society. A grand rascal, this Darwin. And he is taken as the basic principle of anthropology. The whole world has become. So all scientists, by combined meeting, they should kick out his Darwin theory. All, they should modify . . . (pause) Long, long ago, before, things were there. Nobody knows how long. In the Padma Purāṇa it is said, bhramyādbhir jīva-jātiṣu. You know this word?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Bhramyādbhiḥ. There are different forms of bodies of jīva. That is also stated. Jalajā nava-lakṣānī sthavara lakṣa-vimśati (Padma Purāṇa). So first of all, general, from water. That you have got experience. Fish is coming. As soon as there is some reservoir of water, after some day mosquito will come, fish will come, many other bugs and germs will come, jalajā. And their number is also given, nava-lakṣānī. In this way, bhramyādbhir jīva-jāti, the soul, the living entity, is wandering, jīva-jātiṣu. Then he gets a human form of life. The civilization is there. And five thousand years ago Kṛṣṇa said, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). So what this nonsense Darwin will tell us? Rascals. We have already information—jīva-jāti, they are already existing, one after another. (break) " . . .missing, fossil." What is this nonsense? What is missing? The monkeys, they, your father, is there, monkey. Where is monkey is missing? Your father, grandfather is there. So why you have got this body of all a sudden? Enjoy. You have to accept. You are changing body from monkey to man. So these so-called scientists, they are hovering for some false understanding. Now they should come to welcome this point and accept that living entity is completely different from these eight elements, physical or chemical or mental. This should be propagated. Then they will understand what about this spiritual . . . Actually the spirit soul is the basis of all activities. Jīva-bhūtāṁ mahā-bāho yayedaṁ dhāryate . . . (BG 7.5). Actually, because the living entity is there, all activities are going on. Who else would have taken care of this garden unless there was a living entity? Not that all of a sudden the bricks have developed to become a fountain. What is this nonsense? Such a rascal scientific theory?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Chance.
Prabhupāda: Chance? Chance is science?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So we are proving that all their theories are wrong . . .
Svarūpa Dāmodara: . . . one by one.
Prabhupāda: Yes, do that. Why one should be kept in darkness in the name of science? This is our proposal. Jñāna-khale. Sarasvatī-jñāna-khale yad asati. Jñāna-khala. We have got this knowledge. Why should we suppress this knowledge? We must distribute. These rascals will keep the whole human society in suppressed knowledge.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: For money.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Cheating.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: I saw a newsletter issued by the International Society for the Study of the Origin of Life from Chemicals. They just had an international meeting in Japan this April, and I am a member, so they send me a newsletter, national newsletter for the Origin of Life. They have very interesting schemes. The next meeting is in 1978 . . . er, 1981, that's in Israel. So we thought . . . I was actually thinking of presenting a paper in the last meeting, but somehow time was little too short for us. So we are thinking of presenting papers in that international meeting. It is a whole scientific community all over. So I thought it will be very interesting to present our viewpoint and make it very strong. We are very small in number, but our thoughts will be very challenging to all of them, especially mathematics and physical chemistry together. They also have a journal, the Journal of the Origin of Life, and there they write only about chemicals. Everything is just like a story. So we make it a fairy tale, say the molecular fairy tale, and it's very appropriate, that all are stories that they made out . . .
Prabhupāda: They invented stories for going to the moon planet?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yeah, they're making stories about everything.
Prabhupāda: A small toy sputnik, background, a big picture, and photograph.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Did you see that article, "Moon Hoax"?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Our Back to Godhead?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, there's an article that was published in a paper in America called "Moon Hoax."
Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, I didn't see.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I'll show you that article.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: What is it? In Time Magazine?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, in a weekly newspaper from Pennsylvania.
Prabhupāda: No, there are companies. They came to us. Your theory they'll present in a scientific way, so-called scientific way.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. Company.
Prabhupāda: They have got all toys and take photograph.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: I am also feeling that in the last, about five years ago, scientists, though they were very arrogant about ten years ago, seems a feeling that they may be making a little bit on the humble side. They are not as arrogant as they used to be, say, ten years ago. We couldn't talk these things in the West. But now, since they promised all these things, and up till now, actually, we have all those things that they promised about ten years ago. Now nothing's happening. So they're making a second thought, that maybe whatever they thought, it's all wrong, so . . .
Prabhupāda: It is wrong.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's very timely that we present our philosophy and science just in the right of time.
Prabhupāda: Now they will think twice.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This movement is very dangerous. They'll see. First they though it was simply some people clapping cymbals. Now they're beginning to feel the weight, these scientists especially.
Prabhupāda: Just like Tṛṇāvarta. He took away Kṛṣṇa as a small child. When he was up, He became as heavy as the mountain, and then he could not go up. Then he wanted to smash the child and throw it, but the child wrapped the neck of Tṛṇāvarta in such a way, he could not. The result was that he fell down and died. And the child was saved.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So in the same way Western civilization will fall down and die, and we will go on chanting.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: If we get some very leading scientists in the world on our side, at least few, let's say about three, that's enough.
Prabhupāda: So that I am asking to enroll as members of the Bhaktivedanta Institute.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: And that must have come from the United States.
Prabhupāda: Yes. We have got enough material to convince. We are not blind.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Why do they have to come in the United States?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Well, people nowadays expect, if anything comes from the States, that's a fact. So sometime all the leading scientists of the world are in the States. Even if they are coming from other countries, they all get together in the States. Everybody goes there. So something is coming from the States, it is formally respected by all the big men all over the world. So that is why I want to attack the United States as my last, bringing men from all over. Then we can make a strong presentation in the States.
Prabhupāda: And that was my policy—to go and . . . (indistinct) . . . And actually it has so happened. Who would have joined unless I would have gone from United States? Useless. Their money, their men, they are helping. That's a fact. And that was my aim.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You tried here first.
Prabhupāda: And they are useless here, waste of time. Neither I wanted to go to London. "New York I shall go."
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Anyone else would have gone to London.
Prabhupāda: Yes, to go to the Western countries means to go to England. I didn't like that. I thought, "I shall go to New York."
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very modern thinking, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa has arranged.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Everybody's attracted to go to the States nowadays. Even I was attracted. When I had a choice to go any place in the world 'cause I got a scholarship from Indian government, a Western scholarship—I could study in any part of the world, and I could also choose any school I liked—and I told the interview board in Delhi . . . There was a man from England at that time. That was before I left. And I told him that "I don't want to go to England." (Prabhupāda laughs) So he was little offended.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: But nowadays all students, scholars, going outside means going to the States. That is the . . .
Prabhupāda: They give facility. No, I have got good respect for America.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, I'm sure that the scientists, some of the leading scientists, will accept.
Prabhupāda: I therefore say America is my fatherland; India is my motherland. (laughs)
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, in the normal dealing also . . .
Svarūpa Dāmodara: . . . the Americans are very friendly, very nice actually, in general. When I studied in California, I was a stranger, but everybody looked like a friend, very different from England. England is very conservative. They don't say hello. And different.
Prabhupāda: England, nonsense number one. Worst false prestige, England. In that respect, other countries are better. They had a British Empire. They are still puffed up. And they will stay there to continue British Empire. Now they are earning money for eating, showing British Parliament House. Now there is no business.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They make money by tour of the Parliament House.
Prabhupāda: "Shopkeepers' nation." The Parliament has become a shop. Artificially they're maintaining an atmosphere of aristocracy. There is not . . . I talked with some of their Lords. Artificial. The have lost all prestige. Still, "I belong to the Lords' House." The priestly order, the Lord family, I talked with them. Simply artificial.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually, you gave it up as useless. To talk with those priestly orders, I remember, you concluded, "This is a waste of time." They're not at all priestly.
Prabhupāda: They have no intelligence. Anyway, do something.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: I want to clarify a point. The other day I was discussing with this Professor Kundu, director of the . . . (indistinct) . . . Institute . . .
Prabhupāda: Professor Kundu is a famous man, I think.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, yes, he's the director. He works on the nature of consciousness. He has great interest in Bhagavad-gītā.
Prabhupāda: Was he in Scottish Churches College?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: I never know his background.
Prabhupāda: I think in our student there was some Kundu. The same?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: He looks like in his sixties.
Prabhupāda: Oh, then . . . May or may not. It doesn't matter.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: We were discussing about life, and he was talking about the idea that Kṛṣṇa is within the atom.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Kṛṣṇa is within the atom. Atom.
Prabhupāda: Atom is matter. And within atom there is God. That is God.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: But the point was that . . .
Prabhupāda: They have not fully analyzed within the atom.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Aṇḍāntara-stha-paramāṇu-cayāntara-sthaṁ (BS 5.35).
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So the point was that there is life within the atom. But that life is not . . . The consciousness is not developing to the extent that . . .
Prabhupāda: That is very natural. Just like in a child there is life. But it is not . . . consciousness is not developed. That does not mean there is no life. That you can see, daily affair. The same child, when he's grown up or changed body, his activities will change. So where is the difference? Difference—when he was a childish body, the consciousness was not developed, and when he's transferred in another body, his consciousness will develop. This is the point. The ant, there is life.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: There's life in any material . . .
Svarūpa Dāmodara: But we wanted to avoid that . . .
Prabhupāda: In the physical combination of atoms is combination of life also.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: In order to make a distinction between that life and the matter, especially to the material scientific community, we were thinking of presenting in the manner that matter, though in the spiritual sense there is nothing like matter, but still, this matter . . .
Prabhupāda: No, there is no . . . Matter means matter develops on spirit. Without spirit there is no existence of matter. Just like spirit means consciousness. You see in this finger, here is consciousness, and little after, there is no consciousness, this nail. But the nail has grown from the skin. So therefore, from consciousness, unconsciousness . . . Not that from unconsciousness, consciousness.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very good example.
Prabhupāda: Unconsciousness means absence of consciousness.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Unconsciousness also means no life? Does it also mean no life?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Origin is consciousness. When there is forgetfulness, there is nothing. So unconsciousness is a covering of life. You develop this argument. There is no such thing as unconsciousness, but when the consciousness is covered, that is unconsciousness, negation.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That becomes matter.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That we say, "matter." Absence of consciousness is matter, jaḍa.
Satadhanya: We say "covered consciousness."
Bhakti-cāru: But, Śrīla Prabhupāda, the body is matter, but still it is conscious as long as I am alive. So that means the life is consciousness?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So the distinction that we are making is still proper, that matter is the inferior part of that Absolute Truth, and life is the superior part, and without being manipulated . . .
Prabhupāda: Superior feature.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. But both are spirit in a sense.
Prabhupāda: Everything is spirit. Sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma (Chāndogya Upaniṣad 3.14.1). Therefore I say there is no matter. Only matter means when the spirit is not discovered. When people are rascals, then there is matter. When people are intelligent, there is no matter. Sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma. Therefore Māyāvādī philosophy, that "You are thinking you are now God," that is māyā.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Like a kīrtana party now, Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: This is kīrtana, going on. You do not understand what is kīrtana. Any topics on Kṛṣṇa, that is kīrtana. Abhavad vaiyāsakī kīrtane. Vaiyāsakī, Śukadeva Gosvāmī, he became perfect by kīrtana. What kind of kīrtana did he do? Hmm?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Bhāgavata discussion.
Prabhupāda: Yes. You are thinking simply by drums and karatala, kīrtana will go on. Anything we do here, there is no material connection. It is kīrtana. We are not talking for how to increase our business and enjoy women and wine. That is not our business. Yad uttama-śloka-guṇānuvarṇanam (SB 1.5.22). We are trying to establish Kṛṣṇa. Uttama-śloka-guṇānuvarṇanam. And that is kīrtana. (pause) Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ (SB 7.5.23). Hmm? You know this?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Just explain this.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: The other day, when I went from Delhi to Calcutta in the plane, I happened to sit with Dr. Chatterjee, Asina Chatterjee, from Calcutta University. She's a lady, woman, but she's very well known. International scientist she has become. Her name is Asina Chatterjee. And I never saw her, though I was studying side by side in the next building, in Calcutta University. She discovered some drug. That's why she became famous. And she's also a member of Council of Scientific and Industrial Research all over India, and also a member of University Grants Commission. So she told me that she went for a meeting to attend in Delhi. And there was also an engineer who was sitting in between me and her, and I was discussing about our plan about scientific conference on Kṛṣṇa consciousness. He was also Bengali from Calcutta. Somehow she became very interested, just hearing of our talk. I was explaining how scientists misleading, thinking that life can be chemical. And I was describing about how life can be nonchemical and nonphysical. So Chatterjee immediately joined the talk. And I immediately recognized that she must be Chatterjee. So I asked her, "Are you Dr. Chatterjee?" I never saw her before, but I just guessed right. She was Dr. Asina Chatterjee. And she became very interested in the talk, and then she was completely agreeing to our discussion that life is something spiritual, beyond physics and chemistry. So she actually invited me to come and give a talk in chemistry department, Calcutta University. So I said that we are coming back with our scientific group from Kṛṣṇa consciousness and would like to present the philosophy in that chemistry department. So like that, there are many . . .
Prabhupāda: Yes. Recruit them, at least some.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Very favorable, and a person like that, by Kṛṣṇa's mercy . . . I never saw her before, but just happened to be in the right time. And she thought that whatever is thinking in the Western thought about this Darwinian philosophy is also wrong. So I requested her that "It is your duty, or responsibility, as a leading scientist at least to also present this knowledge. You only accept that whatever knowledge is coming from the West, especially in the science, you accept that that is the ultimate. Why don't you also present this genuine scientific knowledge of the Gītā as factual science? That way . . ."
Prabhupāda: Or very . . .
Svarūpa Dāmodara: (indistinct) . . . She said yes. She actually felt the necessity, and she was actually praising a lot about Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that such things are being discussed in our Kṛṣṇa consciousness Society, and she had a great hope that this can be pushed on and the philosophy can be very accepted in the scientific community. So I request her also to help us in different capacities. She can write articles, we can publish in this journal, Sa-vijñānam. We can print it and publicize more on the presentation of Vedic scientific knowledge. So like that, I want to generate some momentum among the leading Indian scientists.
Prabhupāda: Hmm. Do.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Outside. It will be very helpful. And I think it is also their responsibility, duty.
Prabhupāda: Great duty, great respons . . .
Svarūpa Dāmodara: I told the same thing to this Professor Kundu, that "You know all these things, but you just remain silent. You never speak out. You only accept that whatever quantum theory is coming from that West, that is all knowledge, scientific knowledge. What about this aspect?" They all . . .
Prabhupāda: Sir Jagadish was influenced.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. That is why we want actually to have some very strong discussion in Bose Institute.
Prabhupāda: He wanted to give to the Western world that there is life in plants, the same Vedic knowledge. Jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi . . . (Padma Purāṇa).
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think you mention in one of your books that he has proved that the plants also have feelings.
Prabhupāda: Hmm. That is his contribution. He is the first man.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Did you know him, Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: No. He was also older than our father. But I have seen him in childhood, when I was ten, twelve years old. Very intelligent man, soft speaker. His . . . This Marconi's theory is his theory. The wireless . . . The thief has taken. They have stolen. And the British government gave credit to Marconi. He was very sad.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That everybody knows.
Prabhupāda: Yes. The wireless, there was a system. That was his discovery. He was very sorry. The British government stole his idea and gave the credit to Marconi. The Britishers, they always wanted to minimize the value of India, that "They are not civilized. We are present here to make them civilized."
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very . . . The English were expert in diplomacy.
Prabhupāda: Therefore they paid.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That Dr. Sharma here, he was saying that the English, they took advantage of . . . I think it was either Cāṇakya Paṇḍita or one other book about military ruling, some book that they had. Every one of them would have a copy translated into English. They'd all keep a copy of it on their desk, how to subdue by diplomacy and politics. They were all told to learn this book.
Prabhupāda: Saṁrāṭ Veda(?). That is another.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: I'm thinking of the title of our conference as "Bhaktivedanta Vijñāna Conference," in Vṛndāvana.
Prabhupāda: (laughs) They'll take it farce, that "Bhaktivedanta is not a vaijñānī."
Svarūpa Dāmodara: It will be scientific conference.
Prabhupāda: It may be, but they will take it lightly.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They will take it lightly, Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: Because "Bhaktivedanta Swami is not a scientist."
Bhakti-cāru: Yeah, but you are above science, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, this will be "Bhaktivedanta Vijñāna Conference." That includes everything.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That you can do.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: I have taken that idea because in the States, in the United States, there is a conference called Gordon Conference, and I want to develop this in the future as a regular feature of our movement, organize this conference all over the world. We'll title as "Bhaktivedanta Vijñāna Conference," and it involves all sources of knowledge. Just like Gordon Conference. They have a meeting in Boston, in Harvard, in chemistry, and Gordon Conference is in all fields—in physics, chemistry, the humanities. It is very respected all over the academic world. So we also wanted to generate a spiritual scientific conference along these lines. And we can make it . . .
Prabhupāda: Bhaktivedanta is spiritual.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So is that title sound not so attractive, Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: Yes, but they may not take it seriously.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Seriously.
Prabhupāda: Yes, personal. Vedānta means last knowledge. Vedānta is there. And that last knowledge is bhakti. Therefore bhakti-vedanta is most scientific.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They should learn the real meaning of Bhaktivedanta. They may take it wrongly, but we should teach them what is the real meaning, that it is scientific. You always point out that sometimes people say that bhakti is sentimental, but where is there more scientific person than Jīva Gosvāmī, more philosophical?
Prabhupāda: Mad-bhaktiṁ labhate param. It is the last stage of knowledge. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā (BG 18.54). When you surpass all the stages . . . Mad-bhaktiṁ labhate param. It is the last word of knowledge. Yasmin vijñāte sarvam evaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavanti (Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad 1.3). So unless you understand the supreme cause, Kṛṣṇa, there is no knowledge. And if you understand Kṛṣṇa, then you understand everything. Yasmin vijñāte sarvam evaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavanti. Kṛṣṇa also says, aham ādir hi devānām (BG 10.2), ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate (BG 10.8). If you understand Kṛṣṇa, then everything . . . And how Kṛṣṇa can be understood? Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti (BG 18.55). No other way. You cannot understand by any other way. Therefore bhakti-vedanta is last knowledge. There is . . . Argument there is.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: The reaction from that Dr. Kundu . . . As soon as I said "Bhaktivedanta," he immediately realized that this is the personal aspect or, they would say, the personalism or Vaiṣṇava philosophy. So it is also a good effect on those who know some meaning about it. So we can make it . . .
Prabhupāda: Unless there is personal conception, there is no question of bhakti. (break) Bhakti means the way to understand the person. Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti (BG 18.55). Mām means person—aham, mām. Vague idea, Brahman; distributed idea, Paramātmā; and the personal idea can be applied here. It is said, bhaktyā mām abhijānāti. It is not impersonal, not scattered. Particular person, Kṛṣṇa. When Yaśodā-mā was allowing her child to suck breast, the child was . . . And Yasoda mother was enjoying the beautiful face, patting. But all of a sudden she saw within the mouth the whole universe. Immediately she became disturbed: "Another danger is coming." She's not concerned with Kṛṣṇa's expansive, gorgeous . . . She's only concern is to Kṛṣṇa, what . . . She became disturbed: "What is this nonsense? Again something is coming, danger? Let me remember Nārāyaṇa. He'll save my child from all . . ." The personal conception is so strong that he disliked to see gorgeous opulence of his . . .
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Therefore it transcends jñāna.
Prabhupāda: That is jñāna.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's so scientific, it's very difficult to also describe it, especially in scientific language.
Prabhupāda: Why you have to do?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: We are describing that life, or ātmā, as such. Sometimes they ask, "Show me the experiment so that I know that there is life," so we are proposing that "Yes, the experiment is bhakti-yoga."
Prabhupāda: Another example you can give: Suppose a man is high-court judge, very . . . Now, his mother is feeding him, sitting down. And if the son says, "No, let me dress like a high-court judge, then I shall eat," will the mother like it? . . . (indistinct) . . . "You become high-court judge and be satisfied."
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Once I gave a lecture at Emory University to the scientific community, and I tried to introduce this bhakti-yoga in a scientific language and found it difficult, but I tried to bring the idea by comparing that an electron . . . In order to study an electron, we actually take advantage of a field where an electric current can be generated. Otherwise the property of electron cannot be studied in a scientific experiment. Similarly, we established that ātmā, being nonphysical and nonchemical, is spiritual and also has personal character. We must take advantage of a personal feature where one can have direct relationship between this individual ātmā, and there should be also a supreme ātmā. And the relationship of the study of this will be the experimental study, and that experiment is bhakti-yoga.
Prabhupāda: I have several times stressed that living being is a sample of God. If you study living being, you understand God.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Actually, it's very true, and also very scientific, to propose this simile because life, being nonmaterial . . .
Prabhupāda: It is Vedic version. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānṁ (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). But where is the difference? The difference is that eka is so important that He is the source of everything, and He is maintaining this bahūnām. That is . . . Both of them, quality, the same. But one is maintaining; others are being maintained. One is predominator; others are predominated. That is the difference. Āśraya, viśaya. So therefore when you come to the āśraya, that is perfection.
Pradyumna: We are all viśaya. Every living entity is viśaya, and Kṛṣṇa is the only . . .
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And everybody is making believe that they are āśraya, trying to gain the worship of others.
Prabhupāda: He cannot be.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: False āśraya.
Prabhupāda: All these big, big leaders, they want to become āśraya. Gandhi wanted to be āśraya. And he was kicked out: "Get out! You are viśaya. You are trying to be āśraya." Immediately kicked out. That is false theory, Māyāvāda.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I was giving a class once . . .
Prabhupāda: Bhakativinoda āśraya . . . What is that song?
Pradyumna: Yesterday? Nāmāśraya kori' jatane tumi thākaha āpana kāje (Gītāvalī 6).
Prabhupāda: There is another . . . Yaśomatī . . .
Satadhanya: Yaśomatī-nandana, in that last line, Bhaktivinoda āśraya.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, the spiritual master is the shelter.
Prabhupāda: No, spiritual master is under the shelter of Kṛṣṇa.
Pradyumna: Spiritual master is also viśaya.
Prabhupāda: Everyone is viśaya, āśraya. Ultimate āśraya is Kṛṣṇa. Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat (BG 7.7). There is no more superior āśraya.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Can't we say that because the spiritual master is taking shelter of Kṛṣṇa, he is also . . .
Prabhupāda: Therefore he is āśraya, electrified. Sākṣād-dharitvena samastra-śāstrair uktas tathā bhāvyata eva, kintu prabhor yaḥ priya eva tasya (Śrī Śrī Gurv-aṣṭaka 7). Priya viśaya. Therefore he can act as āśraya. Āśraya laiyā bhaje, kṛṣṇa nāhi tāre tyaje, āra saba more akara (Vaiṣṇava-mahimā Song 43). Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura. Āśraya laiyā bhaje, kṛṣṇa nāhi tāre tyaje, āra saba more akara. Others simply wasting time.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: The mental attitude of the inquirer or of the seeker in this bhakti process, you also said, it plays a very important role in understanding this relationship between the jīva, or individual life, ātmā, and Paramātmā, these two relationships. So we proposed that since it is based on psychological interactions— willing, feeling and the thinking—so the attitude should be humble, and it should not be arrogant, and it should field (fill?) the limitations. Actually we try to bring all the brahminical qualities in order to study this bhakti-yoga in a scientific manner, and we presented like that, briefly, in a scientific community, and it was mildly(?) accepted. They were just thinking that . . .
Prabhupāda: Therefore in the society there must be qualified brāhmaṇa. The all rascals, śūdras, professors . . .
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Just like in a scientific experiment we have so many conditions . . .
Prabhupāda: Just this morning I gave: bālayor anayor nṛṇāṁ brāhmaṇo rūpa . . . Nanda Mahārāja. Bring that book.
Prabhupāda: Tvaṁ hi brahma-bhujaṁ śreṣṭhaḥ. Gargamuni is addressed by Nanda Mahārāja. Tvaṁ hi brahma-bhujaṁ śreṣṭhaḥ, bālayor anayor nṛṇāṁ brāhmaṇo rūpa. Seven . . . Eighth Chapter. There is mark. Read there. Just let . . .
- tvaṁ hi brahma-vidāṁ śreṣṭhaḥ
- saṁskārān kartum arhasi
- bālayor anayor nṛṇāṁ
- janmanā brāhmaṇo guruḥ
- (SB 10.8.6)
Prabhupāda: Janmanā brāhmaṇo guruḥ. As soon as you take birth, brāhmaṇa is your guru. So where is brāhmaṇa? Tad-vijñānarthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). Where is that guru? Therefore the society is chaotic condition. As soon as you take birth, you have to accept brāhmaṇa guru. So there must be brāhmaṇas. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, cātur-varṇyaṁ māyā sṛṣṭam (BG 4.13). There must be brāhmaṇas. Otherwise where is human society? It is animal society. In the animal society they are clever, enjoy: "How! How! How! How!" Jackals and tigers and big, this animal, that animal, they are everything. Where is the brāhmaṇa? This is the first time attempt is being made, "There must be brāhmaṇas"—this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. They do not know the aim of life, how it should be organized, what kind of members there should be. No knowledge. Therefore I have challenged that "Your brain is filled up with stool. You do not know how human society is happy." Here is janmanā brāhmaṇo guruḥ. So where is brāhmaṇa? Janmanā brāhmaṇo guruḥ.
Prabhupāda: (Bengali) (laughs) Actually, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is a process of making this animal society into human civilization. At the present moment especially, all animals. I take them as animals. Therefore I say so boldly. I care for them. They are animals. That's all. Maybe very well dressed. I have not said; Bhāgavata says. Śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ (SB 2.3.19). What are these leaders? Paśu. "Paśu? And they are so much held in estimation." Whom? By whom? Śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ: "They are in estimation by the dogs and hogs and camels and asses." Actually they have no position. The public is dog, hog, camel and . . . And they are selecting one leader. So what he should be? Another big paśu, another big camel, another big ass. That's all. Śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ. (Bengali) A big animal. These leaders, they are only big animals. Just like in the jungle, a lion, a very powerful. Then does it mean that he's human being? He's animal. May be an elephant or lion, but he's not a human being. A human child is more important than this lion. It doesn't matter that the human child is taken away by the lion and immediately killed or carried. That does not make the lion very important. (Bengali) A big paśu.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So the brahminical qualifications are prerequisites to conduct this bhakti experiment. That's why we want to bring it indirectly, even in a scientific lecture, by making similes with normal conditions necessary to do any experiment. So we make it a condition necessary. Otherwise you cannot just do experiment without fulfilling this . . .
Prabhupāda: Satya śamo damo titikṣa ārjava, jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma svabhāva . . . (BG 18.42). Where is that?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That Dr. Kapoor, your Godbrother? There's an article that was published in Back to Godhead. So he proves that spirit can be brought out of matter, providing that the bhakti, the brāhmaṇa, the person, develops brahminical qualities to the point of purity. And he uses the example of Prahlāda Mahārāja, that because Prahlāda Mahārāja had developed such a pure love for Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa came out of a material element, the pillar, to prove Himself: "Here is God." So spirit came right out of matter. So Dr. Kapoor used the point that if you want to see spirit, qualify yourself; then you'll be able to see spirit. You can make spirit come right out of matter.
Prabhupāda: That is sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma (Chāndogya Upaniṣad 3.14.1).
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Actually, that's a good example, that, the one that we are using, same simile: in order to study this life being nonphysical, so the experiment also has to be nonphysical, not that directly we observe just like any other material experiment. So those conditions necessary have to be fulfilled in order to conduct this experiment. So they become very quiet. The audience doesn't . . . becomes serious, at the same time quiet. Let them think, "Yes, these things are part of the clean thinking and at very high level." So that since these experiments are nonphysical, the conditions necessary must be very subtle. And the . . . Because the diet that man eats also plays a very important role, and the brain has to be very clean, and the habit must be very clean. Otherwise these experiments . . .
Prabhupāda: Anartha-nirvṛttiḥ. This is called anartha-nirvṛttiḥ. Ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu-saṅgaḥ tato bhajana-kriyā, atha anartha-nirvṛtti syāt (CC Madhya 23.14). Ceto-darpaṇa-marjanam (CC Antya 20.12). Śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ, hṛdy antaḥ-stho abhadrāṇi (SB 1.2.17). These are abhadrāṇi. Vidhunoti. (long pause)
Svarūpa Dāmodara: You have so mercifully given us so many wonderful instructions, Śrīla Prabhupāda. If we can develop just fraction of it . . .
Prabhupāda: That is your deci . . . I can suggest fundamental principles. Now you can develop, as you have already begun. So they are accepting this scientific . . .?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, yes.
Prabhupāda: Bose Institute has developed?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They are doing many kinds of research on life. They're specializing on life sciences. But they have also been taken away by the Western ideas, I gather. So first of all, when I went . . . Actually there is a professor called Professor Bakat(?) in science college. He was my former teacher. So he took me along. So it makes things very easy because he knew all of them, and he had great appreciation for us, like a father. He's a professor, full-time professor, and he knew all these friends, big, big scientists there. First of all, Professor Bakat introduces me, "He's from the International Society for Krishna Consciousness. He's former student, but now fully engaged in scientific Kṛṣṇa consciousness." So they thought it is some sort of a religion. Then . . . "No, no, he's not speaking about religion. He's speaking about the science of life and about the fundamental principles of life and matter and its origin." Then they changed their little outlook.
Prabhupāda: Then they changed?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. Then they became little . . . They opened up their mouth and then started talking. Then once they start talking, then we can generate some platform where we can actually discuss. This Amrtabal Singh is a professor in Bose Institute. First of all he asked my qualifications, said what . . . what do I have. Then I said I studied in the States, and I had this degree, and I was working this line. Actually, I told him all the sophisticated experiments that we did when I was studying. And he was very impressed with those ideas or experiments that I did which they don't do here. Then he asked me . . . First of all he was interested, "How you become . . . How you left those things and become a devotee of Kṛṣṇa?" Then I . . . At that point I got the opportunity to explain how science is an attempt to see the unknown laws of nature, in other words to find at least the ultimate cause or the Absolute Truth. Vaguely it's an attempt at least among those highly thoughtful scientists. They think like that. But we are seeing at this stage of our scientific age that science is not giving those answers. Rather, science is failing. We thought we would do like this, that, and so many experiments and so much knowledge we uncovered, but we do not know anything about life, so there are limitations of this scientific knowledge. So there must be something higher. It cannot be the finishing stage at this moment. So there must be something higher beyond what we know so far. That is why I was interested in knowing more about the principles of life. It cannot be just coming momentarily for some time and staying and getting a family and getting some false prestige. That cannot be the ultimate. There must be something higher. Then he began to understood what I meant and he accepted, "Yes, it's true." That he agreed, "Yes, we are not . . . The knowledge that we have is not able to give all the answers. In fact, science doesn't know anything about life. But we are leaving this most important knowledge of life and just studying something garbage in the name of scientific knowledge."
Prabhupāda: (laughs) You have . . . (indistinct)
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So he became very interested. That's why he took me in an hour. About five minutes he gave me, then he extended about an hour to a very interesting talk. And he became very impressed with the ideas about Bhagavad-gītā. And Dr. Kundu asked me, "What śloka are you using from Bhagavad-gītā?" Then I was describing about nainaṁ chindanti śāstrāṇi nainaṁ dahati pāvakaḥ (BG 2.23). "We're developing that on a scientific language." And he was very impressed with our presentation for the nature of consciousness and quantum physics. So they thought that this is very unique, and they never thought that this could be done. They have great respect for Śrīla Prabhupāda also, said that they have read Bhagavad-gītā As It Is. And they actually accepted and developed lot of scientific thoughts, appropriating with our current scientific frame from Bhagavad-gītā. So once they have that feeling developed properly . . .
Prabhupāda: It will further develop.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. It's unlimited, scientific knowledge. It's all Śrīla Prabhupāda's mercy that all these people are getting at least a second thought, being born in this material world, just been carried away by some sort of temporary knowledge without really knowing what real knowledge is behind. Now, by Prabhupāda's mercy, they have been given the opportunity also to think about it.
Prabhupāda: Yes. You are proper person to understand what is pearl(?). Monkey cannot understand what is pearl(?). (Bengali) Just like mother Sītā. When Hanumān approached, she gave her pearl necklace. He immediately remove it. So one who knows pearl and one does not know pearl, that is . . . Anyway, it is all Kṛṣṇa's desire that you are combined together. So it is my duty to show you, "Here is the pearl." Now, to the few, value of pearl will be appreciated. All theories, bogus, vyapa, garbage(?) . . . At least you have got now basic principles to talk with high-grade scientists. Hmm?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: But I dared to approach them because I am confident that what I am presenting, it is solid. There is no mistake. It is solid. I never said, "May be; may not be." No. Life cannot come from matter. Never. And the knowledge distribution takes some time. They have distributed ignorance by taking time. We have to distribute knowledge by taking time. False knowledge: simply promise, future hope. Durāśayā. Punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30). Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum durāśayā bahir-artha-māninaḥ, andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānā . . . (SB 7.5.31). The society remains in darkness, misled by blind men. We want to save the human society from this catastrophe. This is our noble mission. Why they should remain in darkness? Karmīs, jñānīs, yogīs . . . That should be. Just like some professor in Bangalore, they are trying to expose this Sai Baba. Why? Because they are scientific men; they are protesting, "Why this rascal should keep so many men in darkness?" The same rascal. By false propaganda he is appearing mukta, God. What about Sai Baba? We don't see anything.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No new news about him. Same tricks. He does the same tricks.
Prabhupāda: He is half finished.
Satadhanya: He's a juggler, magician.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Maharishi Yogi is also almost finished.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Nobody takes seriously now. I saw an article just a few weeks ago about Maharishi Yogi, how he is, you know, he has not been accepted. Rather, it's increasing that many believe him that he's just fake.
Prabhupāda: He's bogus.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In Hrishikesh, when he saw how strongly you were preaching, especially to his . . . some of his student teachers, he sent a message that "As you are not feeling well, you should take complete rest." He was a little worried. Prabhupāda was preaching so strongly in Hrishikesh, and he was there also.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, Maharishi?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah.
Prabhupāda: Hmm. He wanted to invite me. I refused, "I cannot . . ."
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Then he sent a message that "You should take complete rest and not do any preaching."
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Recently I saw a book in Boston. It was from England, that book. The title was called The Origin of Johnny. Johnny's the name of a little boy.
Prabhupāda: Johnny Walker. (laughter)
Svarūpa Dāmodara: And it was very interesting, that book. That was . . . This is the Origin of Species. That was Darwin's book. This was the modern version of Darwin's book. It's about this big, and it's full of nice colors with all molecules, DNA and all these nice, modern-looking molecules, and then they say . . . They start . . . It starts like this, "In the beginning there was a big blank." (Prabhupāda laughs)
Prabhupāda: "There was . . ."?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: "There was a blank. There was a void." Everything was blank. And the way he started, it was . . . the foreword was given by this scientist called Crick, Watson and Crick. Crick is in Cambridge, and Watson is in Harvard. So these two men were the men who discovered the structure of this DNA molecule, that they thought that may be life. And they got Nobel Prize for this. And Crick was writing in the first page, saying that "This is the way we have understood about life." But "Everything was started like that, from blank and a blank, blank. And then somehow all these molecules get together and then it became Johnny later on." (laughter) And we can make a nice story out of it.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They make such a story that sometimes they make the little children believe and thought that it might be the fact.
Prabhupāda: Fairy tales.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, so we titled, called, "Chemical Evolution—A Molecular Fairy Tale."
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: And we have developed . . .
Prabhupāda: (laughs) That is very nice.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: And we also have a little chapter called "Intellectual Dishonesty Among the Scientists," and said, "Let's be honest about it. These things are not scientific."
Prabhupāda: This is intellectual dishonesty. They produce sputnik, and going to the moon in the laboratory.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: And then it is exposed, "Moon Hoax." This is intellect. There was a . . . There were many films. One film was . . . What is that? A big monkey?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: King Kong.
Prabhupāda: (laughs) King Kong. They are producing chemical laboratory, yes, studio, and the monkey played . . .
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, they showed him going up and down the Empire State Building in a movie.
Prabhupāda: And it was so interesting, it gathered so many public to see.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Now they have another one, King Kong Returns. Still it's very popular.
Prabhupāda: So they can do these things.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They made another one where they go into the human body. They make the man very small, and then they send him on a trip through the human body, and he's fighting with germs. He gets attacked by germs. And the whole thing is very believable.
Prabhupāda: That Frankenstein?
Devotees: Frankenstein. (laughter)
Svarūpa Dāmodara: We gave a lecture in Gainesville, Florida. It was last year. So Amarendra made a nice poster about our lecture. Something, I don't exactly remember, "Frankenstein or Einstein," describing a little about our talk, that life cannot come from matter. And he made a nice poster all over the campuses.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Many people came?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yeah, some came in the temple. We also gave university, in the physics class, called "Physics for Skeptics," the title of the class. It was very interesting.
Prabhupāda: Now it is clearing. You can go inside.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Jaya. (break) (end).